Things to consider when developing SH4

[MENTAT]

After Playing long long hours weeks and months, i have gathered all the things in my mind; bon apetité

*Everybody is complaining about the crew management but i think it is necessary. It adds a strategic flavor to the game. A U-boat commander is not a guy just looks from the periscope and fires torpedoes. It should be remained and in my point of view, it must be improved in much ways. Fear/Panic factor must be added. For instance some people will not obey orders as they have panicked and stunned. (Close combat model) And does anyone concerns about food supply?
*Damage situations should be improved: Flooding must be animated. In crew management screen players should be able to see flooding level and Maybe a compartment must be closed to control flooding etc. Damage control teams must be represented on the submarine map, which compartment they are in and how many people are working with pumps, and how many are struggling with repairs etc.
*Players should be able to move in the entire boat. To see people in action. See damage & flooding in place.
*Please fix the watchman bug next time. He is too lazy to go upstairs again .
*More of War news, i want to feel that there is a living world around me.
*Option to be able to choose sides!! YES it will be exciting! Germany or USA? British? or Japan aircraft carrier submarines?? YEAH!!! send those planes to panama!!!
*Give players an option to play more "hollywood style". Give them the option to choose "historical timeline" or "Sci-fi/hollywood" in the options screen. (Jagged alliance model)Shortly, Increase the variety of upgrades. Let them to choose their ammunition for flak, mines for mining missions. The ability to remove deck-gun for room for additional batteries? Experimental weapon and equipment awards for most extraordinary succeses. (Panzer General model)
*Let players to spend some time between patrols, put a nightclub in base, let commanders to have some choices to increase their crews morale in a limited time in a wide range of options spending Renown/prestige points on some activites for motivation.
*Make "transfers" tricky. It should have a backdraw. Loose some crew? Costs renowns? Anyway what renowns are for? There must be better ways of spending renowns. "The ultimate target". Nothing is out of reach in SH3! Create ultimate desires to strive for! Air strike calls? Air supplies?
*And the Most important question on minds: "Do I have an effect on the course of War?" Alternative history possibility. Player must be given the chance to be able to change the course of history. The most important lack of SH3 is the "Player is striving for his little success in a war that is already lost"

I remember There was a game in 1985's or so, it was called "Battle of Britain:Their finest hour". It was the game of my life. You were personally planning the attack on England on a strategic map and you were jumping one of the planes in a group and actually fighting for it. The success of the remaining attacks for that day (it was fulfilled by AI after your mission) was 70% influenced by your attack. if you do good, they do good, if you fail, somehow they were so. There were some percentages of the efficiencies of airfields, factories, railways etc. at the end, and if you were able to drop the percentages to a certain level in a given limited time, you succeeded. (Actually i managed to do that and given a start to the invasion of England..those were the days..) Why not this works for the SH4 ? That will be the real "Career" play!

A little increase of strategic elements of this game makes it flawless, a masterpiece!

[Sulikate]

Some interesting points here. I really like the idea to be able to change the war's course... it woud be a very immersive feature, but I don't know if it is possible

[Drebbel]

Good points Mentat, and you write it with so much enthusiasm, A real nice post !

Originally Posted by MENTAT

*Players should be able to move in the entire boat. To see people in action. See damage & flooding in place.

Although this kind of eye candy is always nice I think many people will stop moving around eventually. But maybe it will give us something to do while transitting or waiting foir a prey. Now I think of it, an in-game chess game or checkers in the ward roomwould be nice too (as already posted elswhere by various people)

But a complete 3d sub would certainly be a big selling point !

*Please fix the watchman bug next time. He is too lazy to go upstairs again .

If they fix all major bugs and forget this one I would already be very happy ! :-)

*More of War news, i want to feel that there is a living world around me.

Yes, give us a radio where we can tune different channels, radio tokyo, radio america, naval stations, etcetera

*Option to be able to choose sides!! YES it will be exciting! Germany or USA? British? or Japan aircraft carrier submarines?? YEAH!!! send those planes to panama!!!

I hope the dev-team will not do that, it already takes enough effort to make a decent one-sided subsim, let alone a two-sided.

If they want to create two sides than I think they should create a surface opponent, make a Destroyer Command 2

*Give players an option to play more "hollywood style". Give them the option to choose "historical timeline" or "Sci-fi/hollywood" in the options screen.

Maybe a good idea indeed. Have a "realistic traffic" option. If disabled you have double the amount of normal traffice :-)

And include a "beam me to the action" option (also in campaign mode) for the people that just want to have action.

*Let players to spend some time between patrols, put a nightclub in base, let commanders to have some choices to increase their crews morale in a limited time in a wide range of options spending Renown/prestige points on some activites for motivation.

Would love , as a captain, to do some additional training between patrols. Maybe on a training boat, or maybe just reading historical documents explaining systems/tactics/seamanship/etcetera. Of course I hope we have good in-game books, like id-books, a coastal guid (with info and pictures of the coast/land marks/cities, etcetera

Maybe it would be a possibility if we would not start out as captains at all, but as an officer, working our way up to captain

*And the Most important question on minds: "Do I have an effect on the course of War?" Alternative history possibility. Player must be given the chance to be able to change the course of history. The most important lack of SH3 is the "Player is striving for his little success in a war that is already lost"

I would be strongly against this. Totally unbelievable and a huge immersion killer for me. If I could not switch this alternate history off it would be a reason for me not to buy SHIV

But I hope that SHIV will, just as part 1 to 3, not go for alternate history. If SHIV wants to be considered being a simulation the dev-team has no choice here --> Go historical !!

Drebbel

[rls669]

Originally Posted by Drebbel

But I hope that SHIV will, just as part 1 to 3, not go for alternate history. If SHIV wants to be considered being a simulation the dev-team has no choice here --> Go historical !!

This I don't agree with in principle. You can simulate harware and tactics without simulating history. Is Falcon 4.0 not a simulator because it portrays a campaign that never really happened? Jane's F-15? Longbow? How about Dangerous Waters?

I can see how some people might feel that singlehandedly changing the entire course of the war would be wrong, but a real dynamic campaign (as opposed to simple spawn tables) would take into account the local forces, replenishment rates, supply, etc so you'd be able to change the local situation (for better or worse) according to your mission performance.

[Drebbel]

You can simulate harware and tactics without simulating history.

Yes you can. But SHIV does not just want to be a Submarine Simulator. It wants to be a Submarine Simulator that Simulates the Pacific Submarine Campaign against the Japs.

Is Falcon 4.0 not a simulator because it portrays a campaign that never really happened?

Remember that SHIV will portray a campaign that DID take place. Of course one can include some inaginary stuff in it. But then just do not name it a WWII pacific sub sim

If you simulate WWII then the least you can do is programm an accurate course of the war.

Althought the war will be won every captian can still, if he does things wrong, be a looser. Just as a captain can be a winner in SHIII

[Rosencrantz]

Hello Mentat!

Fear/Panic factor must be added.

Only time my crew get in the panic is when they hear their captain mention the word "dressdrill". Panic in the boat?!? That's impossible.

the watchman

What watchman? I suppose you are not talking about "Wachtmeister", who belongs to the hotel, so you must be talking about OOD? Yeah, they are just lazy bast..., but calling officer as "watchman"?!? Jeez... These youngsters...

Option to be able to choose sides!! YES it will be exciting! Germany or USA? British? or Japan aircraft carrier submarines??

Where did you leave the little green man from Mars? And the neutron bombs?

Air supplies?

Like "Please, send 60 tons of oil, 20 torpedos and a pizza for the captain. By airmail. USS Gato."

Let players to spend some time between patrols, put a nightclub in base, let commanders to have some choices to increase their crews morale

Hmm, like:



I'm just ! No offencive meant!

Wellcome on board, Mentat!

[Rosencrantz]

Drebbel wrote:

or maybe just reading historical documents explaining systems/tactics/seamanship/etcetera. Of course I hope we have good in-game books, like id-books, a coastal guid (with info and pictures of the coast/land marks/cities, etcetera

10 points!

-RC-

[joea]

Originally Posted by MENTAT

I remember There was a game in 1985's or so, it was called "Battle of Britain:Their finest hour". It was the game of my life. You were personally planning the attack on England on a strategic map and you were jumping one of the planes in a group and actually fighting for it. The success of the remaining attacks for that day (it was fulfilled by AI after your mission) was 70% influenced by your attack. if you do good, they do good, if you fail, somehow they were so. There were some percentages of the efficiencies of airfields, factories, railways etc. at the end, and if you were able to drop the percentages to a certain level in a given limited time, you succeeded. (Actually i managed to do that and given a start to the invasion of England..those were the days..) Why not this works for the SH4 ? That will be the real "Career" play!

A little increase of strategic elements of this game makes it flawless, a masterpiece!

Some good ideas, that have been partially covered in mods but would be great in SHIV.

I strongly disagree wtih the last one...it's akward and unrealistic. Especially the part about the AI does as well or poorly as you. One pilot or sub cannot determine the war. A strategic level game for example, will have AI armies rated historically. You are commanding the Luftwaffe in 1939 and have some of the best trained pilots so you are sure they will do well in the taks you choose for them. In 1944 however, you have a lot of rookies and not enough trained pilots or advanced planes (jets lots of older planes) so you have to deal with that as a General. Sorry it doesn't make sense one person's skill should reflect at the operational or strategic level. This is why most board or computer games stick to one level, and sims are usually at the tactical level.

This is not cut and dried of course, Steel Beasts allows the player to command a brigade IIRC, while you are in your tank as well...and Falcon's campaign provides a great backdrop to your flying. Certainly having war news and the like would provide a backgorund canvas for immersion purposes but I don't agree with changing history.

[HunterICX]

The idea about an Full 3D sub is nice, I would love to see the Diesel Engines Work and that about crewmembers walking through the Sub is also something I would like to see. like your in ur command room and an Repair crew comes to you and tell ''The big ass hole in our nose has been fixed sir''
Commander ''With what?''
Crew: With Bernhard Sir! he put on an Raincoat and uses an Straw to breath and is lying on the Hole sir, Just dont dive too deep''

and to Add something
when you destroyed an Ship I wanna hear the Crew Cheer!
comon sinking an big ship must trigger some Happyness

[Egan]

Some of your points are fair enough. I do disagree with the idea of being able to change the war or, indeed, 'hollywood' it up basically because I find the game a lot less hardcore than I would like already. I definately don't go for the idea of 'alternate history' either. It's something I have never liked in other games and it would probably stop me buying another Silent Hunter title if it ever happened. That is just me, though. I am the King-Geek.

A 'less realism' option is one thing but only if there was a 'full hardcore' option as well..

I think Drebbel has made an important point about communications. I would like to be able to monitor international shipping traffic on the radio, not just a few scripted messages but dynamic comms from shipping all over the place. it would help immersion no end.

Thinking though about your first point: I don't think anyone is against the concept of crew management - just the way it has been implimented in the game. It needs an overhaul for sure but it is a major step in the right direction. A full 3d interior would also be very nice.

Also, I was under the imression that there was a game already coming out that uses the Sh3 engine but has you running the naval war at strategic level? I can't remember the name - maybe it was no more than vapour-ware? I'm sure someone else knows what I'm talking about

[Gizzmoe]

Originally Posted by Egan

Also, I was under the imression that there was a game already coming out that uses the Sh3 engine but has you running the naval war at strategic level? I can't remember the name - maybe it was no more than vapour-ware? I'm sure someone else knows what I'm talking about

Subwolves:
http://www.subwolves.com

[Egan]

Thanks Gizzmoe.That is the one.

[donut]

I like the the change the watch crews idea,topside,engine rm.,& dive stations. The crew in SHIII are to zombie like,don't even know missing watch is a violation of UCMJ.,& Captain's Mast,is required.USN. discipline required. In SHIV.
ALSO:
Torpedo's do not bounce off thin hulled merchants,if they do not detonate on impact,they punch a hole in the hull,and go off on time out,end of run time,if set to impact.(Real life) Set to magnetic torp.might dent chine,& deflect off in rough seas though,or run under,for a miss.SHCE did not have magnetic detonates,quire? :hmm:

[MENTAT]

Thanx for your valuable comments.

I knew it would cause lots of reactions to offer an alternative history but hey, i am talking about an "option" here. Relax and keep in mind that there will always be the "historical" option to go for you guys

Thanx RLS669 i feel the same way. I am not talking about the <Rambo> or <Doom> here. I dont mean to fight the entire world with a shotgun single handedly. (and bring the victory to Hitler with my bare hands) I just want to feel that "with every single ship i waste, we are closer to win" We dont have it in SH3. If we are talking about a "realistic" simulation, I'm sure U-boat Captains had the same thing on their minds. They hunt in that piece of hell just for victory of their nation. They feel that satisfaction with every single merchant they sunk. If they knew they will loose the war at the end, no one in the earth would concieve them to go for another hunt.
I would loved to have a pat in my back when i return to base from my commander while examining statistics about how u-boats are efficient, England logistics situation and other achievments on map. Strong zones, weak zones, luftwaffe coverage efficiency etc.

On the other hand, what do we have here? One more merchant for a couple of more renowns to change my... batteries?? and one more for a Flak Zwiling! ... How realistic!

Aint my offer is far more realistic? And Just admit it, you feel an irresistable pleasure for new upgrades and equipment when returning to base. I simply offer you more!

Also i dont think it will be harder to make other nations side to be available? Same game engine, some interior changes, languages change, uniforms and flags will change and different missions and starting base will change. (That is currently made possible with lots of mods already)

And i am completely agree with you donut. The crew is sure like Zombies.

Unfortunately there are instances of luftwaffe transported food, ammunition and mail to submarines in history Rosencrantz. Yet ı dont know how they kept pizzas hot all the way along.:rotfl:

And more suggestions:
*I dont want to see just an office while in base. I want to be able to go nightclub, chat with other captains, go to pens and watch the progress (animated) while my boat is being repaired/upgraded. imagine lots of people on her some welding, some directing a crane, torpedoes loaded! This game needs lots of eye candy for sure!

*I want to see aircraft pumping steel to submarines! They just drop a DC and run away! Its no different than shooting birds out there. I never deal with wounded on deck. Also it must be made possible to have disasters in rough waters. Men wounded on deck, man fell in sea! etc.

*Does anyone noticed, in english crew language, nobody shouts ALARM when crash dive ordered?! (Its happening in German tough)

*Museum must be improved. It is much primitive as it is currently.

*Recognition manual: Shouldnt it include armaments and stuff like that also?

*Unable to touch anything in command room pisses me off!

*What happened to release some oil, some clothes and wood pieces through a torpedo tube to surface to fool destroyers while lying silent in deep?

*Morale is nothing to consider? What is it for in SH3? More stats of seaman in SH4 required.

[Drebbel]

*What happened to release some oil, some clothes and wood pieces through a torpedo tube to surface to fool destroyers while lying silent in deep?

Oh NO, not that discussion again