Spain and it's apes

[Skybird]

We had, some weeks or motnhs ago, a short note on Spain granting human rights to great apes. I admit the comments made by Mrs Stumpe, president of the Great Ape Project, made me change my originally mokcing mind, and realize that I misunderstood the intention behind the move to grant human rights to certain great apes. But I realize that there still is a contradiction: that these rights are given to some highly intelligent species, but others like dolphins are esxcluded. However, that not all species immediately are adressed in this way should not be a reason not to give it to some, at least. Because maybe it becomes a precedent case. I think the comment by the president is worth a thought, or two, while the commentator of the Brussel Journal back then was off track.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1123

Mean little devil inside me certainly likes religious conservatives boiling hot about this. May they boil forever

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Mean little devil inside me certainly likes religious conservatives boiling hot about this. May they boil forever

that's what they do----it's kinda a hobby for them..it's ironic that those who claim to spend their lives considering what should be the most profound concepts you could imagine--are frequently the least capable of understanding them..IMO most overtly conservative religious folks are living out a fantasy about themselves that would normally only be considered a form of mental illness..in that they believe them selves to be Batman :hmm:

[The Avon Lady]

Next thing you know, if someone whacks a mouse to death in their kitchen (No, I never had any. If I did, I would have jumped straight up to heaven), they'll be on Interpol's wanted list.

Good luck, Europe!

[Skybird]

Think you misunderstood what it's about, AL. I think it is a safe assumption that a mouse is no creature with a higher state of self-awareness and intelligence.Although, from a more religious point, there is nothing evil I trying to prevent less "valuable" species from unnecessary pain as well.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Think you misunderstood what it's about, AL. I think it is a safe assumption that a mouse is no creature with a higher state of self-awareness and intelligence.

OK, I feel better now!:p

[TteFAboB]

I still don't get it.

More laws?

Aren't ALL animals protected equally?!

But the whole moral superiority, and monopoly of enlightenment is what's scary. Not to mention the "new age" thing.

I suppose anyone who oppose this, such as the Catholic Church and Amnesty International are immoral, unenlightened, old age, evil killers.

Good luck stopping cruelty with new laws.

What's the criteria for judging which creatures have higher states of self-awareness and intelligence? I've spent a long time with dogs, just as she spent a long time with apes, and there's something about dogs that no ape has. Then again, not long ago a study confirmed Flyies can be homossexual, considering flyes are 99%-whatever similar to humans, can dodge all but the quickest hands, buzz human ears and use clever hit-and-run tactics to steal human food, I'd say they are pretty intelligent too, even if they can't think like a gorilla or recognize themselves on the mirror.

Monkey wants banana.

Since we're on this road, why don't we kill our own human retards? If a human who can speak has a disease or condition which doesn't allow him to recognize himself on the mirror they shouldn't be entitled human rights.

Quite arrogant for someone to believe they can judge intelligence and which species deserve this right and that right.

So human, so monkey.

[Khayman]

Where did you get the point about a species recognising itself in the mirror? I can't see that anywhere in the article. I can see someone trying to protect an animal that has no rights, indeed less rights than a houselhold pet. Just because it doesn't extend to other animals does not make it less vaild, or arrogant. If someone came out with a law in the past to stop dogs being abused, or puppies drowned, would you have objected on the grounds that flies should be included?

[Skybird]

Maybe a reminder of what it really is about is needed again, although you just have red it above:

Under current legal systems throughout the world, great apes are considered mere property, like a chair, a car, or a computer. Their owners and others can do virtually anything they wish to them without significant repercussion. As such, granting them legal rights is the only way to ensure the protections necessary to guarantee great apes freedom from torture, mistreatment and unnecessary death.
To be clear, the extension of legal rights to great apes does not mean that they would share the same rights now available only to humans. No, chimpanzees won’t be seen in voting booths. Rather, these laws simply recognize basic legal protections consistent with biological and scientific evidence that great apes possess a high level of consciousness and self-awareness similar to the level found in human children. They experience intense emotions such as fear, anxiety, happiness as well as grief over the loss of loved ones. They develop long term relationships, become depressed when separated from their families, can independently solve puzzles that confound human children, and can create and use tools. They recognize the past and plan for their future. They hug and kiss to make up. They learn to communicate in a different language, express their feelings and desires, and unilaterally teach their new language to their children. [...] We do not have to choose between helping humans or helping other animals – we can do both. [...] Recognizing rights of great apes does not mean that they would all be set free. Nor does it rule out the possibility of euthanasia if it is in the interest of an individual ape whose suffering cannot be relieved. Rather, these fundamental rights would simply require “owners” to become guardians with a legal responsibility to consider each great ape's best interest at all times. For example, great apes that are tortured or mistreated would be entitled to removal to a healthier environment, much like a child who is abused.
We stand at an important crossroad. The choices we make will be a revelation of our true moral character of humankind. Are we too self-absorbed to stop the oppression of those beings who, despite an undeniable ability to experience fear and a conscious awareness of their plight, cannot speak for themselves?

So - what's wrong with that?

My impression is for some people it is more about their concern hat their belief of man being the heart and centre of all life, creation, cosmos, maybe tells more about man's egocentric selfishness than about reality. So they react hypersensitive to everything that questions man to stand unique in the centre of all creation. Institutional religions of course does not help a lot here, since they declare all universe to be revolving around man and his ideas that replaces reality. But as a matter of fact, the human race is an evolutionary experiment only, one amongst thousands and hundreds of thousand of others on this mplanet, and it is one far from proving to be a successful design. Very possible that homo sapiens sapiens will prove to be a blind alley only, and will be skipped from further attempts to develope it. I easily could think about far more survivable and long-living, thus successful designs. Cockroaches, for example, and certain types of unicellular organisms. We still need to prove that we really are so fantastic as we think of ourselves. From a non-human point of view, so far all we have acchieved is to bring the art of killing ourselves to perfection and messing this planet up completely, at the cost of all other life-forms on it, and in the name of our glorious "ideas". Not a too impressive bilance, I think. Show me another life form here on Earth that joins us in these two follies.

[Khayman]

Well said Skybird

If we last as long as the dinosaurs then I'll be amazed. Admittedly I'd be amazed from my grave, a difficult thing to do but one I hope to accomplish if needs be.

[TteFAboB]

Originally Posted by Khayman

Where did you get the point about a species recognising itself in the mirror? I can't see that anywhere in the article. I can see someone trying to protect an animal that has no rights, indeed less rights than a houselhold pet. Just because it doesn't extend to other animals does not make it less vaild, or arrogant. If someone came out with a law in the past to stop dogs being abused, or puppies drowned, would you have objected on the grounds that flies should be included?

It's a metaphor.

When YOU look yourself in the mirror, do you see yourself? Do you see your reflection? Do you see rays of light? Do you see the image upside down? No? But you do see it "flipped" horizontally? What exactly do you see?

Self-awareness, instinct, mind, neuron, hormone, knowledge, wisdom. To recognize a Chimpanzee as special and priviledged on the ground he should have more self-awareness than a fly, or a dog, is like paying 1 million dollars for one of his paintings.

There should be one law only, to protect each and every animal, if great apes are not as protected as Tazmanian Devils, then why the fuss about a new age? What would be so enlightening as elevating gorillas to the condition of dogs? To me, it's humiliating, pathetic, an insult to human intelligence, not simian. To make a circus out of it is no different than a proper circus where apes get cruel treatment. Apes are being used as objects, just like a chair, in this case, it's more like a ladder.

Skybird, come back to earth, call Dick Cheney and ask him to shoot off your wings, both feet on the ground now. This has nothing to do with your cosmical flight.

It's about eroding the legal system, creating a priviledged class, it's not a frontal assault, oh no, don't be silly, it's about eating the Rule of Law by the border, one bite here, one nib there. Confusion, mess, disinformation, good will, kindness, help. With the excuse of helping the weak, the helpless, the needed, the very foundation of universal protection is attacked, and it feels like it's the right thing to do.

Great Apes kill, massacrate, practice their own little genocides. In their natural enviroment Gorillas can be ruthless, not recognizing the rights of the "other", they respect no other species, no laws, they make justice with their own hands. She insist on comparing them with human children, but the fundamental difference is never remembered:

The difference from all animals to children is that babies grow up. Great Apes can only go so far, feeling fear is different from understanding fear and dealing with it.

From a non-human point of view, if things were inverted, they'd be just the same, if not worse. But that's because I watched Planet of the Apes.

[Khayman]

TteFAboB, you touched on something I was going to post. I was going to mention the UK TV series Cousins with Dr.Charlotte Uhlenbroek. It showed a bunch of chimps beating the life out of another one - just because it has strayed onto their territory. It limped away so severely injured that she said it probably wouldn't survive. So yes they are just as violent as us. They aren't wee cute things to go "Awwww" over.

I'd say we are just the same though, look at our wars! Also "The difference from all animals to children is that babies grow up. Great Apes can only go so far, feeling fear is different from understanding fear and dealing with it" is a pretty big assumption. How can you tell, and what if you are wrong? Besides if I fired a gun and an ape ran away then isn't that recognising fear and dealing with it?

As for things being no different if they were inverted, that's meaningless because things aren't inverted. Also " Confusion, mess, disinformation, good will, kindness, help. With the excuse of helping the weak, the helpless, the needed" I can't see what is wrong with trying to help the weak, helpless and needed. If it causes confusion it's because we're doing it wrong, but I don't see how this issue is doing anything wrong.

As for what I see in the mirror, it depends how much I've had to drink.

[Yahoshua]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Next thing you know, if someone whacks a mouse to death in their kitchen (No, I never had any. If I did, I would have jumped straight up to heaven), they'll be on Interpol's wanted list.

I have barn mousers for that....but my sister and I are unusually sadistic if we catch a live mouse (I don't think I should describe the process, but in the end the cat gets to eat it).

[Skybird]

TteFAboB The only one going ballistic here is you with lamenting that the heaven is falling because of rules and laws and certain people taking benefit of that to control all of us. While I agree on that in many different areas, I fail to see your point in protesting against the protection of only a few of very highly developed species. I think you oppose it for reasons of opposition only. You don't have a real case that leads beyond that. At least I fail to see your arguments. Maybe you want to learn a bit about the research beeing done in the last 20 years on Gorillas and Orang-Utahs before continuing - you might be positively surprised about how much human these two species are.Concerning the law-protest fo yours, read again what I have highlighted in the posting above. All in all it's just about treating life that is at our mercy in a fair and good manner. Something we humans do not really excel in.

[Khayman]

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

I have barn mousers for that....but my sister and I are unusually sadistic if we catch a live mouse (I don't think I should describe the process, but in the end the cat gets to eat it).

And I've got an air pistol and an air rifle for shooting squirrels. They keep getting into the loft and chewing through cables and making a right mess. It's actually illegal in this country to capture a grey squirrel then let it out into the wild, so death it is (and if you'd been kept awake by thumping and scratching then you'd understand that attitide).

This does not change my opinion on the article since, so far, no ape has invaded the loft, kept me awake, and cut off my cable access.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Think you misunderstood what it's about, AL. I think it is a safe assumption that a mouse is no creature with a higher state of self-awareness and intelligence

Define "higher" please. A mouse certainly has a highter state of self-awareness and intelligence than say an earthworm.