Thermal Layers

Hi all

I´ve been away for several months, and i dont know if they will be included in the game.

I already know that they werent present in SH3 due to "limitations in the engine", but i think that they must be present now because the engagements at the Pacific Theater were at much less depth than in the Atlantic.

P.D - Sorry if this question has been asked before

[StandingCow]

Yea, I brought this up in another thread.. thermal layers are apparently much deeper in the Atlantic than they were the the pacific.. deeper than subs could go, so that is one reason they were not added.

However, they are a big part of the pacific theater... so.. I dunno, I will submit this question on the ubi forums.

EDIT: submitted, hopefully they will answer, on there I am meguassb.

[The General]

I used to love Red Storm Rising on the C64. They had thermal layers on that. Did they know about thermal layers in WWII?

[Iron Budokan]

Yes, they knew about thermal layers. Buchheim talks about them in his book Das Boot and also mentions how the ocean is stratified like sedimentary layers. He also mentions how they knew if they went below a layer of algae that helpled avoid Asdic, too.

[flintlock]

Originally Posted by StandingCow

thermal layers are apparently much deeper in the Atlantic than they were the the pacific.. deeper than subs could go

I keep reading on posts on this forum where people state, matter of fact, that thermal layers were deeper than WWII subs could reach. I wanted to attempt to clear this up, but in the end may simply add to the confusion (hopefully not).

Disclaimer: I am no scientist and this is post is not directed at you or anyone in particular.

I believe thermal layers were well within the reach of subs. As a phenomenon, random element, I'm guessing these would be pretty dynamic and geographically localized. From what I have read, admittedly little, these could occur within the oceans thermocline layer. This is the layer directly below the mixed layer and where the temperature of water changes rapidly with depth. We know that once you get below the mixed layer (isothermal conditions) and prior to reaching the deep layer (isothermal conditions again), the temperature of the water decreases. As I understand it, the thermal layer is the phenomenon where you get a temperature increase within a thin boundary layer, before it would decrease again. There are many accounts where submariners during WWII said they managed to get below these in the Atlantic.

Again, I'm no scientist, so I'm simply going on what limited research I've done myelf. It's just that I keep seeing posts by people exclaiming, in a matter of fact fashion, certain things as fact. Fair enough, though if you're uncertain, then please indicate this -- or at least be prepared to cite your sources. I'm not suggesting you're doing this, I'm simply generalizing here (myself included). It's not limited to this topic either, trust me. Things become confusing to readers and risk becoming perpetuated when people, unsure about things, state them as fact.

Ubisoft's developers interviewed Jürgen Oesten (Kptlt. and commander of the 9th Flotilla in Brest) and asked him about thermal layers during WWII in the Atlantic. I've included a link to an audio file you can download from Ubisoft's ftp that features this audio interview.

Jürgen Oesten
http://www.uboat.net/men/oesten.htm

Audio interview with Jürgen Oesten
ftp://ftp.ubi.com/uk/silenthunteriii...rmal_layer.zip

so that is one reason they were not added.

According to Ubisoft's developers, thermal layers were added SH3. At least I never read anything from them to the contrary after the fact. During SH3's development, at community Q&As, the devs were asked about thermal layers. They explained they would be modeled within the game. And who's to say they're not -- I think it's one of those things where it would be difficult to model to the extent you would know for certain whether or not you managed to slip under one.

SH3 Devteam Q&A Part 1 (see #19)
http://www.silenthunteriii.com/uk/devteamquestions1.php

SH3 Devteam IRC Live Chat 04.08.04 (see question by U-658)
http://www.silenthunteriii.com/uk/livechat040804.php

Cheers,
flintlock

[StandingCow]

You know what.. they MAY just be.. have you ever during a dive all the sudden hear the pings get very quiet?

That has got to be thermal layers... right? Or just because you are so deep?

[Finback]

I believe thermal layers are modelled in SH3 for the same reason StandingCow states.

Thermal Layers are Very Dynamic. Weather has a huge impact on where they are or if they exist at all. There can actually be multiple thermal layers in the same area (existing at certain depths of course). From my experience in SH3 (and i pre-ordered and still play it a lot) is that the Dev Team may have even modelled the "Afternoon Effect". The afternoon effect is a layer created right around periscope depth on very sunny days. The sun warms the surface of the water creating a very shallow layer. On afternoon attacks on bright days, I have sometimes gottn away undetected by staying at periscope depth and slinking away--even 1942 and later...

Layers work because the rapid temperature differential creates a dense Salinity layer. It's the layer of dense salt that reflects sound, not temperature itself.

[StandingCow]

Adds a bit more importance to the weather report you get from your watch crew too.

Warm, sunny = low dive might be best.

Stormy = Dive deep and run silent.