Its all been said before!!!!!!!! time and time again

[captcav]

Look i know its been said, god only knows ive said it, but these playables are getting mighty boring and lifeless! I know the answer i'll get, SCS is waiting on a push in sales to release an add-on! when? whats their target? what if they dont reach it? are we stuck with the 4 harpoon single rack FFG for the rest of our lifes? or possibly the 688 that has internal stations the resemble a janes platform from 1997? oh come on, please tell me there is more than this!

I purchased this game thinking of the possibilities of what could be added to this game from the community, various ships, from all sides, adding multimission capabilities, with interacting allied forces.
How many good modders are out there just bursting to add new platforms! and detailed ones! like being able to launch the RIH from the FFG, or make the bridge actually look like one! how about someone take on a challenge for a 3d walkable?

Noooooooo cant be done! its against their wishes they say!, all the while we sit here with a gaming platform able to produce so much more than what has been released. Problems is, there is no damn selection in this simulator market anymore, all with Janes gone, the competition is shrinking, which means there is nobody pushing these guys to be up-dating, and coming out with ground breaking sims!


GOD DAMN FRUSTRATING!

[Stewy]

I can sypathise CaptCav - I've been hanging out for extras for a while too - I can understand the SCS need for more cash from sales to devote time and energy to it too though...

Who knows? It might happen - I suppose the common pleb like me just has to keep hoping and wishing...

DW is a massive leap from SC, and maybe people lose sight of that - not sure...The platforms are cool - but with a taste of some cool things - people always want more.

I'd kill for Western Diesels more than anyone on the planet, believe me - but because I'm not on the programming staff at SCS - it's really out of my hands...I'm hoping that sales are good and more addons come (which I'd be keen to pay for)

Doing a programming degree at Uni is also out my hands - but that's another story

Who knows - it might come one day?

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by captcav

Noooooooo cant be done! its against their wishes they say!, all the while we sit here with a gaming platform able to produce so much more than what has been released. Problems is, there is no damn selection in this simulator market anymore, all with Janes gone, the competition is shrinking, which means there is nobody pushing these guys to be up-dating, and coming out with ground breaking sims!

Why do other sim developers have to be "pushing" us so that we invest money in games which have a very high probability of their costs never being recouped on their commercial sales? Our royalty statements will do that very loudly all by themselves, captcav, we don't need any help there.

Listen, we're not in this to become millionaires, I can promise you that. We enjoy making these games and we are able to do the gov't/training applications with the underlying engine so that we are able to continue to make these games for you (that's called a win-win situation).

However, those goverment customers would not invest their budgets into our NavalSimEngine if they heard that the source code was released to the community and fans were creating their own controllable platforms. They would organize their teams of programmers, grab our source code and make the platforms themselves... (or at least TRY to)

So please, have a little perspective, think it through a bit and realize that there is probably a reason why we no longer have much competition in Naval Sim space and be thankful that games like DW (which have high potential to be expanded upon) exist for you to play at all!

[LuftWolf]

Captcav, you obviously don't play multiplayer, because this community has not even realize 1/10th of DW's potential. We are still only in the infancy of what can be done with the DW engine.

I wrote this in the Sonalysts forum and I'll post it here again, because the problem in my estimate is that SCS did such a remarkable job with DW, that everyone thinks it was easy, when in reality DW is a major achievement, one pulled off so well that people like you don't even realize what you've got in your hands.

Dangerous Waters is a wildly innovative product. Simply put, no other company has ever attempted to combine a command study sim of the depth of Dangerous Waters with the breadth of topic matter and perspectives covered in the same battlespace and have it be interactive in real time from multiple players in the same running game, at least not in a product intended for a civilian buyer.

Any single one of the platforms in Dangerous Waters could have been sold as a single package, and each one would be the most complete modelling job done for any one of those platforms in the history of simulations. But instead they have included multiple nuclear and diesel submarines, ASW helocopter and Maritime Patrol Craft, and guided missile ASW frigate with helocopter capability in the same package.

Wanting, no expecting more at this point is infantile.

[LuftWolf]

are we stuck with the 4 harpoon single rack FFG for the rest of our lifes? or possibly the 688 that has internal stations the resemble a janes platform from 1997? oh come on, please tell me there is more than this!

Actually, there is a good possibility yes.

Not to beat a dead horse here, but there is a VERY REAL possibility that Dangerous Waters will be the LAST NAVAL SIMULATOR EVER. Now this may seem dire, but if you look at the reality of the gaming market, it is an absolute miracle that Dangerous Waters was ever made.

A part of myself is has it as fact that there will never be another game like Dangerous Waters produced, at least not for some time to come.

So, once again, to expect more from SCS is just crazy.

[Bellman]

LW:

VERY REAL possibility that Dangerous Waters will be the LAST NAVAL SIMULATOR EVER.

'Kill Chain '? The game is only 30% complete and won't have full ASW and ASuW capability until 2007.
Of course it might never happen. :hmm:

But who cares - believe me there is an Everest to climb in mastering
existing platfforms. DW IS A WINNER !!
:|\

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Bellman

'Kill Chain '? The game is only 30% complete and won't have full ASW and ASuW capability until 2007.
Of course it might never happen. :hmm:

Kill Chain is being developed on the Navy's nickel, isn't it? Typically if the Navy funds a simulation/trainer/analysis tool from the ground up they own all of the source code for that development. Perhaps the KillChain folks were smart enough to retain the rights to their intellectual property, but if not, KillChain will only be used by the government for its original purpose - simulation and analysis.

I certainly could be wrong, but I haven't read anything that said otherwise. If someone has read anything to the contrary, please let me know (I am wrong often ).

[Bellman]

You are absolutely right Jamie KC is Navy Pro only -

http://www.kill-chain.com/

http://www.navyleague.org/sea_power/dec05-24.php

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.o...c1/sb-navy.htm

If LW had said - ''There is a very real possibility that Dangerous Waters will be the last COMMERCIAL
naval simulator ever.'' Then I can agree that statement.
As long as we can safely assume that AGS wont up the ante with Harpoon so that remains out of the equation.

[captcav]

whoa! hold on a second there cowboy! im not taking anything away from what hard work has gone into DW, i simplY want to know why????? the sim community is unable to add and develop it's own playable platforms? surely you can see that these are hands working on projects are not an overhead that SCS is paying for????? and it will boost the interest in the game, god only knows torro it will give it more publicity!

Have a look at fs2004? my god woman! how many modders have made that game bigger than it was when it was released? why? well it's because alot of their spare time, as a hobby.... was spent developing these platforms for all to enjoy! christ i still love the game cause i have the chance to mix it up, and not get bored with the same platforms!

And if boy genius above is right when he said that this could be the last naval sim? then take the gloves off, unlock its potiental for all to use! i think you will through the exposure that will bring your sales will increase, and as a result so will your profits, allowing you to continue along this track of developing naval sims!

Now just excuse me for a second, you say that your not in it for a profit? well, most titles that dont allow any mods what so ever in the faint hope that when they release an addon, they will be able to cash in on the publics interest and drooling need for a little more out of a static marrage, the company is usually in it for a profit! Companies dont do crap out of the goodness of their beating little pink bits!


BRING DOWN THE BARRIERS, GET THESE BRILLIANT PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE MODELING THESE MAGNIFICIANT SHIPS TO ADD TO WHAT COULD! AND I SAY COULD! BE THE BEST NAVAL SIM OF ALL TIME!

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by captcav

whoa! hold on a second there cowboy! im not taking anything away from what hard work has gone into DW, i simplY want to know why????? the sim community is unable to add and develop it's own playable platforms? surely you can see that these are hands working on projects are not an overhead that SCS is paying for????? and it will boost the interest in the game, god only knows torro it will give it more publicity!

Have a look at fs2004? my god woman! how many modders have made that game bigger than it was when it was released? why? well it's because alot of their spare time, as a hobby.... was spent developing these platforms for all to enjoy! christ i still love the game cause i have the chance to mix it up, and not get bored with the same platforms!

And if boy genius above is right when he said that this could be the last naval sim? then take the gloves off, unlock its potiental for all to use! i think you will through the exposure that will bring your sales will increase, and as a result so will your profits, allowing you to continue along this track of developing naval sims!

Now just excuse me for a second, you say that your not in it for a profit? well, most titles that dont allow any mods what so ever in the faint hope that when they release an addon, they will be able to cash in on the publics interest and drooling need for a little more out of a static marrage, the company is usually in it for a profit! Companies dont do crap out of the goodness of their beating little pink bits!


BRING DOWN THE BARRIERS, GET THESE BRILLIANT PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE MODELING THESE MAGNIFICIANT SHIPS TO ADD TO WHAT COULD! AND I SAY COULD! BE THE BEST NAVAL SIM OF ALL TIME!

I think SCS explained in very clear terms the situation.
If you don't want to understand then
MS doesn't develop software for the military, they invest billions of $ in research, they sell hundreds of thousands of office, windows software so you can surely see that SCS can't be on the same level of MS.
SCS has given the community the ability to mod the game, they are just not giving up the rights to what they have developped.
Just accept this fact and you will enjoy DW.

[John Channing]

1) SCS is not Microsoft and, as such, does not have the marketing muscle to drive initial sales to the point where add-on's are not an issue to them.

2) Of course SCS would like to make a profit. Releasing the source code would be a pretty stupid way to get there.

3) Check the attituide at the door the next time you enter. We treat EVERYBODY with respect here.

JCC

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by captcav

Have a look at fs2004? my god woman!

Did you just call Jamie a woman? Jamie is a dude...

[OneShot]

EDIT : Dang, just posted and saw that others allready said the same just with less words ... :rotfl:

Originally Posted by captcav

whoa! hold on a second there cowboy! im not taking anything away from what hard work has gone into DW, i simplY want to know why????? the sim community is unable to add and develop it's own playable platforms? surely you can see that these are hands working on projects are not an overhead that SCS is paying for????? and it will boost the interest in the game, god only knows torro it will give it more publicity!

Originally Posted by Jamie

However, those goverment customers would not invest their budgets into our NavalSimEngine if they heard that the source code was released to the community and fans were creating their own controllable platforms. They would organize their teams of programmers, grab our source code and make the platforms themselves... (or at least TRY to)

Pretty simple in my eyes ... if they make their SDK available to "easily" (Jamie don't spank me for that) add new playable plattform, somebody (like another Gov.) could buy the base game and make some nice fitting plattforms and all for a damn low price. I'm not into Gov. purchases, but I heard everything the Gov. normaly buys comes at damn high price. And guess what, SCS main area of work is doing stuff for the Goverment - thats where they get their primary money. DW is sort of a By-Product (which continues to cuase headaches for some - Hi Renzie )

Originally Posted by captcav

Have a look at fs2004? my god woman! how many modders have made that game bigger than it was when it was released? why? well it's because alot of their spare time, as a hobby.... was spent developing these platforms for all to enjoy! christ i still love the game cause i have the chance to mix it up, and not get bored with the same platforms!

Yep, FS2004 is a very nice game, and I have it too. Is it comparable to DW, yep but only in the way that both are simulations (very different ones at that tho).

Originally Posted by captcav

And if boy genius above is right when he said that this could be the last naval sim? then take the gloves off, unlock its potiental for all to use! i think you will through the exposure that will bring your sales will increase, and as a result so will your profits, allowing you to continue along this track of developing naval sims!

Hey Lw, you hear that ... boy genius, but believe me - I won't change your Staff title. Anyway, guess why Naval Simulations like Dangerous Waters or Sub Command are a niche product? Because there are lot less people willing to spend hours chasing a sub then people to spend time flying over their virtual world. Flying is to most people a lot closer to their grasp then being on the inside of a billion dollar submarine 1000ft below the surface. There is unfortunatly not such a high demand for games like DW then for games like FS200X.

Originally Posted by captcav

Now just excuse me for a second, you say that your not in it for a profit? well, most titles that dont allow any mods what so ever in the faint hope that when they release an addon, they will be able to cash in on the publics interest and drooling need for a little more out of a static marrage, the company is usually in it for a profit! Companies dont do crap out of the goodness of their beating little pink bits!

I think the answers to this paragraph are covered in the above quotes and my answers.

Originally Posted by captcav

BRING DOWN THE BARRIERS, GET THESE BRILLIANT PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE MODELING THESE MAGNIFICIANT SHIPS TO ADD TO WHAT COULD! AND I SAY COULD! BE THE BEST NAVAL SIM OF ALL TIME!

First off, do you think that shouting into someones face might be helpful to convince him of your point of view. I don't think so and actually that is a very rude behaviour, which I would call counter-productive. Now on to the content of your sentence, DW is by far in most peoples opinion the best Naval Sim of all time (personally I consider Harpoon more a strategy game). So that base is covered. And sicne you obvisously haven't taken the time to dig some into the DW related forums on subsim, everybody here is actually allowed to make up and produce new modells for ships, planes, whatever - the only limitation is that by all means it shouldn't be playable. That is the sole right SCS has reserved, to create playable plattforms. Everything else, be it missions, new graphics, sound - stuff like that, which doesnt involve playing around with DLLs, EXEs or the likes is open for modding.

In closing, when I read your first post on this thread that all of the plattforms get boring for you, then you are either one hell of a wiz kid, or simply haven't taken the time to really learn all the plattforms. I think, and others will most likely say the same, that this is one hell of a complex game in mastering (I'm not talking about knowing what button does what) the indivdual plattforms and relevant tactics and can provide you with fun and a learning experience for some time to come. If you really think you know it all whats to know about the plattforms and the tactics, I would be the first to be interested in a nice manual about tactics for the FFG for example.

Cheers
OS

[Fandango]

Jamie,

why don't you make it like Lead Pursuit with Falcon 4.0?. They are open to anything that comes from the community and they only require a third-party add-on agreement, that is, the add-on comes from Lead Pursuit which has full control of it...

For instance, there may be the chance to have some "advanced" 3D models which for sure will be appealing and to have that for free...

[LuftWolf]

Originally Posted by Fandango

Jamie,

why don't you make it like Lead Pursuit with Falcon 4.0?. They are open to anything that comes from the community and they only require a third-party add-on agreement, that is, the add-on comes from Lead Pursuit which has full control of it...

For instance, there may be the chance to have some "advanced" 3D models which for sure will be appealing and to have that for free...

I'm not sure I like that idea... I want to be able to mod what I want within the boundaries and not worry about whether SCS won't like my VLAD's at xxx ft or whatever. Jamie and I have a nice working relationship (I think so), I don't want to be in the position and I'm not sure he wants to be in the position of approving or declining our mods, since we all know the rules we can just play by them and everyone can be happy. Also, if I happen to have anything that is close to classified data in the mod purely by coincidence, if they sanction it, as an organization with access to a lot of classified data, we could all be in a lot of trouble with people it's best not to be in trouble with, for all of us.

The less regulation and red tape the better, IMHO. I like it when the rules are set and everyone stays friends unless the rules get broken.