Program Files (x86) Revisited (steam install)

[jcmemphis]

Ahoy all! I am yet another lost one who drifted away but returning now after more than ten years! And as it was ten years ago, this site is the vital blood required to keep the ole boat afloat!

Sorry up front for the lengthy post, But I gotta make up for ten years of not posting! I am posting now in hopes of helping some sailors out with their Steam installations. A month or so ago, I bought SH5 from Steam and ignorantly installed it into Program Files (x86). Then I started looking into mods and realized I might be screwed. I combed over this site and others to try and see what the symptoms would be when it screwed up. I couldn't get a clear answer other than some access issues to system related calls would fail. So I figured what the heck, I got nothing to lose by trying, so I loaded the TWOS mod.

Well, guess what happened ----- it worked! I ran SH5 all the way through with no issues, not even one single CTD or lock-up. And by the way, TWOS is GREAT!!!

So now to SH4. I tried the same trick. I installed the Berbsters wonderful package that includes GFO and Max Optics. But a few missions in, BAM - crash! CTD. Then my save file wouldn't load, or the one before that. I knew that it was a gamble anyway with modding inside the Steam directory structure.

I completely wiped SH4 and re-installed from scratch. I decided to play the stock version just to see how bad it was. About four missions in, guess what - CRASH - CTD. But unlike before, I could load the save files and get back in. Once back in, I realized the bug was location based. The closer I got to point A, the more laggy I got until it locked up, then crashed. So I was able to reverse course and travel to a different part of the map, and all was good again.

Sorry, I know this is getting long - I'm almost to the point! So another two or three missions in, I get the same bug, and again, I am able to steer around it. But then I recalled that each time this happened, it was when I was getting close to a convoy that I had detected. A larger one. What? A phantom convoy cruising around the ocean destroying my game!? Insane!!!

So then I was looking at the latest posts on Subsim and, ironically, someone else was having a very similar issue. So yes, I believe in the phantom convoy! This is the post that discusses it: https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...d.php?t=254644

But note that I also did follow the cleanup guidance from KaleunMarco.

But this got me thinking. You see, I'm not just ignorant, I'm also stubborn. If the stock version is getting the same bug, then it isn't the modding within Steam that caused it. Which meant, in theory, I could put the mods back in!

And now, finally, the point of story...yep, I loaded the mods back in, all of them, and have been running just fine.

So I am asking of the seasoned experts here: what is supposed to happen when installing mods in the Program Files (x86)? Is it possible that Steam somehow fixed the issue recently? Or am I just one lucky captain?

But I am also shouting out to those Steam captains out there: don't dismay, try modding it in place to see if it works for you.

I will offer one piece of advice: when steam asks if you want a shortcut, say yes and always use that shortcut to run the game. It is not a shortcut directly to the executable but has some steam magic on it. Might not mean a thing, but that's what I did.

Phew. Anyone still with me? If so, thanks for reading and thanks for any comments or further advise. My plan is to finish SH4-GFO, then I am going to wipe it, reinstall from scratch and mod in the FOTRSU mod - I can't wait to play that.

And thank you to this site. I spend almost as much time reading through posts as I do playing the game.

EDIT: What? There's more? Just wanted to say that I believe the issue with the save files was reusing the same save files. Also note, I do not use LAA or 4MB patch. Runs flawlessly (well, except when tracking the pirate virus convoy).

[propbeanie]

To the Steam shortcut first, it goes through the Steam front-end for licensing purposes. It used to be that you had to start the game through Steam once after installing to activate the licensing. You could then copy the game folder itself elsewhere and use it without the Steam shortcut (the Wolves of the Pacific folder - NOT the Steam folder). It might be different now, but I haven't been using my Steam versions of SH3 & 5 of late, so I do not know what updates, if any, that they have done.

As for using the game in the Program Files folders, Windows will roll back all cfg and ini file changes done by JSGME, since neither program are "authorized" by the 'modern' Windows (they were written to WinXP and DirectX v9 standards). With TWoS, since it has its own "installer" app, Windows is initially none the wiser of the changes made. However, you often foul the props when doing the TDW Options editor, and often only get 8 of the 9 changes to take.

With SH3 and 4, since you are usually dealing with using JSGME as a mod activator, as mentioned with Windows, all of the cfg files will be rolled back to what they were before using JSGME. You then end up with a mish-mash of a mess of mods. When you remove the mods, the game's Save folder is already "polluted" with the mish-mash mess, and the troubles continue...

Two main points with Steam, and basically, any version of the games:
1. Either install Steam AND the game outside of "C:\Program Files (x86)..." in a folder you create, such as "C:\Games..." (never install directly to the "root" C: drive), or if you have a valid 2nd hard drive, install the game in a Steam Library folder on the 2nd drive. Refer to Moving a Steam Installation and Games for some info there.
2. The Silent Hunter games (3, 4, & 5) all run off of the Save folder ("C:\Users \UserName \Documents \SH#", whether 3, 4 or 5). As such, when you add or remove a mod, that Save data is not changed "automatically". As such after any such changes, the Save folder is in a "mixed state". After any major changes to the mod set-up (sometimes even seemingly minor ones), the Save folder should be emptied by deleting it from the Documents folder. That will wipe all configuration changes, including gameplay and video settings, back to "default". The Save data is then reconstructed with 'new' info from the game folder the next you run the game. That will eliminate what you saw with Stock SH4 after removing the mods...

[jcmemphis]

Very interesting. So in essence, then, portions of the mod will be okay, but any changes the mods make to documents/sh4/data will not take/hold.

You are absolutely right about SH5; I noticed when I ran OPtionsFileEditorViewer that many of the changes didn't take. But (see earlier comment about stubborn) I kept trying and eventually the ones I wanted finally stayed in, but it was frustrating.

I also noted your comment about root directory. I had tried moving my steam installation to a directory I made off root and it didn't work. I have read over the instructions from the post you shared and I am just not willing to go through that. I have other games installed from Steam that I don't want to remove and I am not willing to get another drive just for this. And just to be clear (asking): moving or copying the steam installtion (the one Program Files (x86)) to anywhere else outside of the steam area will not work? I mean like copy to documents/mygames/SH4/... Agree?

I was thinking that maybe I would just buy a copy directly from Ubisoft and then using that for mods. I'll probably continue with the build I have unless it becomes no longer worthwhile. Once finished (or too frustrated), I will get the Ubisoft and use that for FOTRSU.

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by jcmemphis

Very interesting. So in essence, then, portions of the mod will be okay, but any changes the mods make to documents/sh4/data will not take/hold.

Mods are made to be used "whole", so when Windows rolls back and deletes (as an example) the APD_Manley.cfg file from the FotRSU mod, the ship is not "whole", and "calls" to it in the game can potentially cause a crash. Or an existing ship has other file changes in the mod that do not work with the Stock version when the cfg file is rolled back. Also, the mod does not change the documents folder - which is another "Windows Protected" folder location btw - the mod changes the game folder, and then the game itself will add to the Save folder what isn't already there. If a file exists in the Save folder, it is not replaced after changing mods, which is why the Save folder should be deleted through File Explorer or other means - not through the game though... Saves are generally not compatible between Stock or mods or mod to mod...

Originally Posted by jcmemphis

You are absolutely right about SH5; I noticed when I ran OPtionsFileEditorViewer that many of the changes didn't take. But (see earlier comment about stubborn) I kept trying and eventually the ones I wanted finally stayed in, but it was frustrating.

SH5 with TWoS (and somewhat SH3 with GWX), due to the use of an installer applet to do the mod changes. It is still best to not be in a "protected" folder.

Originally Posted by jcmemphis

I also noted your comment about root directory. I had tried moving my steam installation to a directory I made off root and it didn't work. I have read over the instructions from the post you shared and I am just not willing to go through that. I have other games installed from Steam that I don't want to remove and I am not willing to get another drive just for this. And just to be clear (asking): moving or copying the steam installtion (the one Program Files (x86)) to anywhere else outside of the steam area will not work? I mean like copy to documents/mygames/SH4/... Agree?

There was a fellow who "faked" Steam into a 2nd Steam Library Folder on his C: drive, by installing the game to a USB external drive, then found the references to the drive somewhere in the Steam files, and changed the path to a folder he had made on the C: drive. I have not been able to find that post... If you have even just a few Steam games, moving the Library folder can be a real pia bother. ALL of the Steam games would have to be moved, and that can take a LONG time, since basically, they have to download again... You might be able to copy your current Steam version of SH4 to another folder though. First, remove all mods, and copy the MODS folder somewhere outside of the game folder, for "safe-keeping" and re-use later. Then run the Steam Verify Game Files from the Steam app on your computer. It will basically re-install the game, but it will be a "clean" version when it is finished. While that is happening, navigate into your My Documents folder and find the SH4 folder there and delete it. That gets rid of the old Saves. Once Steam is finished with the "verify", log into your computer Steam app and launch SH4 and get to the game's main menu. That does the licensing stuff. Exit the game. Now navigate into the game folder ("C:\Program Files (x86) \Steam \SteamApps \common \Silent Hunter Wolves of the Pacific" or whatever its name and path). Use the <Ctrl>-<A> key combination to Select All, and then <Ctrl>-<C> to "Copy" all of those files. Now navigate to the root of the C: drive and make a new folder ("Games" as an example) and navigate into that folder. Make another folder inside that, using an appropriate name for the use, such as "TMO" for Trigger Maru Overhauled, or "FotRSU" for Fall of the Rising Sun Ultimate (easier user maintenance later), or whatever you want. Navigate into that new folder, and use <Ctrl>-<V> to Paste all of the Steam folder's SH4 files there. You now have a 2nd copy of the game on your hard drive. Before you add any mods though, consider the use of MultiSH4 v1.5 (match the game version and the MultiSH4 version) to make a separate Save folder for this copy of the game. The Save folder name change with MultiSH4 can be just about any 3-character combination, as long as you do not use "special" characters. So numbers or letters are safe to use. Make it something you will associate with your game copy, such as (again) TMO for TMO or FRS for FotRSU, or whatever you want. Now you can add a mod to your game copy. Keep the Steam folder version there for when you want to play the Stock game, and it keeps the SH4 Save folder. All modded game copies should have their own, newly named Save folder. You might want to create a desktop shortcut and point it at your new game copy, or you can also add it to your Steam list, though it will use the same name and icon as the "original", until you edit that. If you do that though, do NOT use the Steam Verify on the copies, else the whole folder will be deleted... Just remember that a modded game cannot use the same Save files as the Stock game, or any other version or copy of the game, else you invite all sorts of oddities.

Originally Posted by jcmemphis

I was thinking that maybe I would just buy a copy directly from Ubisoft and then using that for mods. I'll probably continue with the build I have unless it becomes no longer worthwhile. Once finished (or too frustrated), I will get the Ubisoft and use that for FOTRSU.

You most certainly could purchase the Ubisoft download and have it on the same computer as the Steam version. However, whichever version you install 2nd will overwrite the Windows registry and that can cause issues for the other version when its "front-end" attempts to do "updates". With the copying described above, you could have the Stock game in the Steam folder, and any number of copies of it in your "Games" folder, each in their own uniquely named folders, and each with their own uniquely named Save folder (MultiSH4), and each is segregated from the others. You cannot however, "share" the Saves between the different versions... The one "gotcha" with the Steam games is with SH3, in that the widescreen GUIs do not seem to be able to work properly with the Steam version. SH4 and 5 are fine in that regard, since they have proper 'modern' interfaces.

[jcmemphis]

That's a lot of great information, propbeanie, and I really appreciate your expertise. I am still chugging along with my potentially corrupted SH4 GFO mod. I occasionally still bump into the phantom convoy , but am able to navigate around it.

I am looking for FOTRSU to be my final and only version to play with. So I think once I wipe the GFO version and install the Ubi version then mod FOTRSU that I will be ok. When I uninstall using the steam utility that will supposedly wipe any footprints from the registry.

I will repost here with my updates so that others can learn from my pain.

Thank you so much for your patient guidance.

As a Post Script, I will say that no matter what happens, I am still glad that I bought the Steam version, despite all the drawbacks. I say this because over time, I will no doubt drift away from SH, then at some point get a new PC and potentially lose all my SH stuff. Alternatively, god forbid, Subsim may someday end up moth balled at the bottom of the sea. Having the steam version will insure that I will at least be able to get a stock copy of these legendary games forever. I have also kept all of the great mods, like TWOS for SH5 and GFO and FOTRSU for SH4 in special directories in the cloud in an effort to future proof myself for endless enjoyment that I will take with me to Davey Jones' locker.....

[Aktungbby]

jcmemphis! after a 13 year 'silent run'!

[jcmemphis]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

jcmemphis! after a 13 year 'silent run'!

Thank you, it's really good to be here. It was my own ignorance that kept me away. Over the years, I commonly reflected back to my Silent Hunter days. I always felt it ws my all time favorite game. But after a year or two away, I just ASSUMED that it would not run on modern hardware, let alone Windows 10.

Then one day out of the blue, I got a message from Subsim about some event. I came in and looked around at all the people still active on the site. And when I saw it was possible to run again, I did not hesitate!

Now each time I play, I feel like I'm seeing an old friend! Happy times again!