Pardon me?

[Platapus]

The topic of Presidential pardons has come up on the Internets Tubes. Judging from the posts I have read on multiple forums, there are some misunderstandings about this. What better chance can I have to get all pedantic, bombastic, and pompous about something near and dear to me – policy


First of all, we need to understand the terminology. Despite the Constitution describing powers of pardon, what we are really talking about is powers of Clemency – Executive Clemency to be specific.


The President enjoys several different types of Clemency Powers


1. Commutation of Sentences – Reducing or removing the amount of time a convicted person has to serve in prison as a result of their conviction.
2. Respite– A temporary suspension of a sentence. Almost always used to delay the execution of a convicted prisoner to allow additional time for review
3. Remission – Just like a Commutation but applies to monetary fines. Commutations and Remissions are treated differently and the Executive has to render each separately.
4. Amnesty – A formal and irreversible decision that the government will not prosecute a person (or group of persons) for a specific crime or groups of crimes.
5. Pardons – The forgiveness of a crime granted after conviction. The crime and all its penalties are forgiven, but the fact of the conviction stays on the person’s record


Wait a minute. Secure the telephonic communication device there professor. Everyone on the Internet knows that President Ford pardoned Nixon and there was no trial no less a conviction. What gives?


Well technically Ford did not pardon Nixon and Ford did pardon Nixon.


Technically, what Ford issued was a Special Amnesty for Nixon, meaning that the federal government won’t prosecute Nixon for any crimes he may have committed. Amnesties are way better than Pardons as the issue of guilt never comes up. So why does everyone believe Ford pardoned Nixon?


Well Pardons are easier to understand and spell than Amnesty for one thing, but the real reason is that due to a circular definition, Amnesty is a type of Pardon… even though technically Amnesty is a type of Clemency, which is even harder to understand and spell. So to be really accurate, Ford issued Nixon a Type of Pardon, in which the specific type was a Special (limited) Amnesty. In the end, it really was a difference that made no difference.


So now that we understand that we are talking about Clemency, lets see what the Constitution says


“...he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.”


We can forgive the writers for the slightly inaccurate use of the terms Reprieves and Pardons. Word meanings and what they encompass can change. Rest assured that where the Constitution states Reprieves and Pardons, what they meant was Executive Clemency.


But let’s look at the other words. The next phrase is “for offenses against the United States..” This limits what the president can apply his or her powers of Clemency to. Offenses against the United States are usually violations of Federal Law.


The President does not have Executive Clemency powers where state laws are involved. That clemency power is held by the governor of the state where the crime was involved (and that can get complicated depending on the extent of the crime). A good way to find out if a specific case is an “offense against the United States" is to look at the case title.


If the title of the case is “The United States v. John Dough it is about an offense against the United States. If the case is “The State of Ohio v. John Dough, it is not an offense against the United States, but an offense against the State of Ohio.


Is there anything other than state and federal offenses? Yes.


There are Crimes against the Court. These include perjury (but often there is a companion federal law that prohibits perjury) and Contempt of Court. The President does not have Executive Clemency power concerning Crimes against the Court. Even if the President pardons a person from violating any federal laws about perjury, the court still maintains power over Crimes against the court.


A moments careful thought should illustrate the wisdom of this exclusion from Executive Clemency. If the president could pardon anyone who commits perjury or contempt of court, it would be impossible to hold the president accountable for any wrong doings.


There are also Crimes against Congress. These also include perjury and contempt. Yes Contempt of Congress is a crime, but fortunately only when under oath so pretty much all the citizens are safe. But in any case, the President does not have Executive Clemency power concerning Crimes against the Congress.


Again, a moments careful thought should illustrate the wisdom of this exclusion from Executive Clemency. If the president could pardon anyone who commits perjury or contempt of congress, it would be impossible to hold the president accountable for any wrong doings.


The final phrase in the constitutional article is “except in Cases of Impeachment.”. Impeachment is a power of the congress and the the President does not have Executive Clemency power concerning impeachment.


Once again, a moments careful thought should illustrate the wisdom of this exclusion from Executive Clemency.


Can the President Pardon him or herself?


No.


1. The president enjoys a temporary immunity from prosecution of state and federal crimes during their time in office. This immunity used to cover immunity from civil prosecution but that was removed during the Bill Clinton administration. So if the president has temporary immunity from prosecution, there can’t be a conviction and therefore no way to pardon.


2. The president can, however, be impeached. As stated in the Constitution, the President does not have the power to issue pardons in cases of impeachment. Once the president is impeached (meaning convicted), also after impeachment conviction, he or she is no longer the president and therefore has no Executive Clemency powers at all.


Can the president issue a special amnesty on him or herself?


Now that’s an interesting question. Fortunately, the answer is no and the answer is not contained in the Constitution. There is a long standing tenet of Natural Justice that "no-one should be a judge in his own cause". If you want to impress people, that would be nemo judex in sua causa.

Chicks dig guys that can speak Latin....no, I can't back that up. They mostly just roll their eyes at you.

So no, the president can’t issue a special amnesty on themselves. Nor will issuing any amnesty on anyone else prevent the congress from carrying out their constitutional duties of impeachment.


This is one of the examples of why the interpretation of the Constitution can not be limited to only the words contained in the constitution but must incorporate those tenets that the writers felt did not need to be repeated. If a constitution were to list every single tenet, the document would be hundreds of pages long. This is why ScotUS justices spend most of their time reading both US and foreign case studies. If interpreting the constitution were just based on the text, we would not need a Supreme Court and sure would not need so many justices to agree.


Most likely much more than you ever wanted to know about Clemency. By the way, the same restrictions that apply to the President also apply to the individual Governors with respect to their legislation and courts.


So when you read that the president can pardon anyone for anything, they are mistaken. A great deal of thought has gone in to the balance of allowing Executive Clemency but also protecting against its abuse. Not a perfect system, but one that all the political parties in our country have used for their advantage.

[Gargamel]

Well written, thanks.

As yes, I was counting the letters in words to actually see if they were easier to spell.

[Jimbuna]

Polite Advisory: Should there be any deviation into political contention this thread will be merged into the US Politics thread so please can we all stay strictly on topic.

[Mr Quatro]

You know better Platapus ... I learned my lesson too .. I feel your frustrations, but Jim is right.

Just post it over in US Politics and re-post when the subject is brought up again. You did good I'm not knocking you, okay!

[vienna]

In a non-political manner, I wish to also express commendation of the exemplary manner in which you explained a complex subject; as with other subjects reported in the broader media of all kinds, the terms and words used sometimes suffer in the effort to make them 'understandable'. Your use of humor is also impressive, as it aids in getting the information across and prevents the sad 'TLDR' cop-out a lot of people use to avoid having to deal with the actual details of a subject. Very, very well done...

I would commend you in Latin, but the extent of my Latin knowledge has waned since I left Catholic school and both no longer had the need for it nor the presence of nuns to beat it into me, so all I can muster is a greatly understated "Bene factum"...




<O>

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by vienna

I would commend you in Latin, but the extent of my Latin knowledge has waned since I left Catholic school and both no longer had the need for it nor the presence of nuns to beat it into me, so all I can muster is a greatly understated "Bene factum"...




<O>

PARDON ME! But as your corpus maximus is no longer optimus it follows that: your in flagrante is also no longer so delicto! Alas! at our age a good ol' nun-beating...literally (alma mater flagellum) can be a habit-forming maxima culpa which is as close to felix culpa as your present day attempts at carpe noctem's tend toward: velocius quam asparagi conquantur!(faster than cooked asparagus) But hey; BBY!

[vienna]

Well, it just goes to show you all those Latin drills literally drilled into us in those old school 'ruler across the knuckles, switch across the seat' parochial schools just didn't take once we fled the ecclesiastical fold. For a good many of us 'lapsed Catholics' (which kind of sounds like we didn't keep up the membership fees), once we were out the school door and rid of the 'black veiled monsters', we basically ran wild. I do have the 'distinction' of being the only kid in my school who actually slugged a nun, so, that combined with other subsequent transgressions has probably ensured I will not be enjoying a pleasant hereafter, if there is one. The main downside is the need to alter my walking routes to avoid churches lest, in passing by one, I should suddenly burst into flames...

The subject of Presidential pardons reminded me of a part of impressionist-comedian Rich Little's routine following the resignation and 'pardon' (deference to Platapus) of Nixon; impersonating Gerald Ford who is asked in an interview how he found now being President: "The transition has gone pretty smoothly; the White House staff in particular is very, very polite: they keep saying, "Pardon me, pardon me..."...





<O>

[propbeanie]

Ah yesh, vienna - I remember those days all too well... still have nightmares about Sister Francis (or was it Frances??). She hated boys, and it seemed especially me... but back then, as an "alterboy", we had to say all sorts of stuff in Latin... not too much stayed in my grey matter either, other than Sancto, some of the stuff on the back of coinage (e pluribus unum), Semper Fi(delis), and the ole reliable ad infinitum ad nauseum - which is a "fake" Latin phrase... - I can see though, that we can use Aktungbby, as well as Jim Belushi, as reliable sources of lern-Ed Latin phraseology, 'cause he's got it in a video right there!...

Very nice posting Platapus. One thing I find is that a lot of folks discussing the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, or any other other early US documents don't read the history of them nor do they try to understand them, and just repeat "modern" history's ad infinitum ad nauseum repeatings of generalizations and mis-information. The devil is in the details.

Are you going to do a post on "Enumerated Powers"? Lot's of folks have difficulty with the "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

[vienna]

I was also an altar boy in Catholic school; I remember the newbies were given the early daily masses to assist; IIRC, the earliest mass in our parish was at 5:00 or 5:30 am and we boys were expected to be there early to prepare, so it meant leaving the house at about 4:00 to 4:30 am and trudging through the cold San Francisco streets, clear sky or rain. It wasn't a long walk, mine was about 7 or 8 blocks in my case, but it could be a bit spooky. I also have forgotten almost all of the Latin I learned, but, for some odd reason, I can still recite the Suscipiat correctly from memory to this day. Odd indeed. If you're looking for a bit of nostalgia, I came across this link a while back; its a handbook for altar boys and the various forms of Mass:

http://www.sanctamissa.org/en/servin...servers-0.html


Now, back to the original subject, if you'll 'pardon' the digression. Here are a couple of links dealing with Presidential pardon's 'Greatest Hits':

7 Famous Presidential Pardons --

http://www.history.com/news/history-...ential-pardons

This next list has most of the same names as the previous list, but it is included because some not on the first list are a bit interesting...

11 notable presidential pardons --

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayof...ons/index.html

List of people pardoned or granted clemency by the President of the United States --

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States





<O>

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by vienna

I was also an altar boy in Catholic school; I remember the newbies were given the early daily masses to assist; IIRC, the earliest mass in our parish was at 5:00 or 5:30 am and we boys were expected to be there early to prepare, so it meant leaving the house at about 4:00 to 4:30 am and trudging through the cold San Francisco streets, clear sky or rain. It wasn't a long walk, mine was about 7 or 8 blocks in my case, but it could be a bit spooky. I also have forgotten almost all of the Latin I learned, but, for some odd reason, I can still recite the Suscipiat correctly from memory to this day. Odd indeed. If you're looking for a bit of nostalgia, I came across this link a while back; its a handbook for altar boys and the various forms of Mass:

http://www.sanctamissa.org/en/servin...servers-0.html

<O>

I pardon you vienna ... all things are spiritual. What you describe is still in you and you have to forgive those misguided souls and move on in life.

Now please pardon me as I try to help you understand that what you have been through is hell: http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/su...nd-an-exorcist

our Charismatic churches often do not discuss or embrace the ministry of deliverance the people of God don't know the difference between a deliverance minister and an exorcist and can end up falling into deception. In the 1913 Webster's Dictionary, we find the definition of both an exorcism and deliverance.

Exorcism is defined as, "Driving out of evil spirits from persons or places by conjuration." Conjuration is incantation, which is a witchcraft definition. Exorcism is an expression or trick used in conjuring. Synonyms to conjuration are: abracadabra, bewitchment, charm, spell, enchantment, hex and incantation—which are all witchcraft terms and practices.

Related words to conjuration are: curse, jinx, magic, necromancy, sorcery, voodoo, and wizardry—which are again practices involving evil spirits.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Are you going to do a post on "Enumerated Powers"? Lot's of folks have difficulty with the "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

You do NOT want me to get into the forgotten 9th and 10th amendments. Trust me.

Grrrrrr

[propbeanie]

- but it would be ~fun~... though perhaps a smidgen on the vebose side of things, necessarily, due to the subject... - everybody thinks that the congress can write any law they want to, and that the Supreme Court can undo any law they want to, and that all the president needs is a pen and cell phone... Not too many politicians (nor citizens) try to emulate the George Washington model...

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by vienna

I do have the 'distinction' of being the only kid in my school who actually slugged a nun, so, that combined with other subsequent transgressions has probably ensured I will not be enjoying a pleasant hereafter, if there is one. The main downside is the need to alter my walking routes to avoid churches lest, in passing by one, I should suddenly burst into flames...

NOPE! it'll B 'Akbar Vienna' time though