question regarding the English Channel.

[boonie]

hi guys, i have a question.

from what i know the germans during ww2 has a pretty strong air force from the start to middle part of ww2. and they pretty much has control on that part of the european continent, why did they not clear up the channel with their air power so their subs can have safer passage to their hunting ground?

did they tried but failed? i imagine it would be quite easy to pop up over the coastline and straffe the bejesus out of all the patrol boats there and beat a quick retreat even if situation were not so favorable. just my thoughts..

[Sailor Steve]

The call it the ENGLISH Channel for a reason. Germany has nothing that can come close to matching the Royal Navy. The English heavily mined both ends of the channel, and only they had the charts showing where the mines were (and weren't). While the Royal Air Force was relatively weak, the German Luftwaffe fighters (the famous Me/Bf-109) had a rather short range.

The Kriegsmarine couldn't overpower the RN. The Luftwaffe had the bombers but not the fighter escort to stop the RAF from defending the RN ships. This is the reason for the Battle of Britain. The Luftwaffe had to knock out the RAF before they could hope to defeat the Royal Navy, and when they actually tried that it all went wrong for them.

As for popping up over the coastline, they had two more problems. The bombers had to stay at a fairly high altitude to avoid the batteries of anti-aircraft guns placed all around any possible targets. That, and the British had the world's first extensive Radar system, and it was tied to an equally massive communication system.

An easy way to get a grasp on this is to watch the fantastic old movie Battle of Britain. You'll be informed and entertained like never before.

[Aktungbby]

Anything U can actually fortify U can name!!?? A forgotten bit of history: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/world-war-ii-fort-madness-britain-s-bizarre-sea-defense-against-the-germans-a-728754.html & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunsell_Forts

[boonie]

hmm i still dont really get it.. they practically had control over the entire french coastline. the radar thingy should be easily spoofed by low flying and there should be no AA all the way until they hit the water. i think their bf110 should be well suited to do some quicky rodeo over the waters. couple that with some observation stations over the coastline this should be pretty feasible... just cant stop wondering why it wasnt done properly..

[Sniper297]

I would suggest going to your local library, non-fiction section, find some books on the Battle of France and the Battle of Britain in WW2. The main weapon they had against shipping was the JU-87 STUKA, which was defenseless against Hurricanes and Spitfires. The 110 was also no match for RAF fighters, and the Germans quickly discovered they were useless as escorts because they needed escorts themselves, so every time they ventured over the channel they were shot to pieces.

As for low altitude flights to defeat radar, there are entire books and chapters devoted to the rapid advances in the capabilities of British Chain Home and Chain Home Low radar in 1940.

But don't take my word for it, research it.

[Jimbuna]

@boonie

An interesting question and coincidentally precisely what Steve and I discussed at length just a couple of days ago.

Sniper suggests researching the subject and rightly so because the subject matter is up there with other military achievements that are of great importance to the British people.

Meanwhile, I'll post a few links to help you along and leave you with the famous words of our leader after said events, in those troublesome days when Britain stood alone...“Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.” ― Winston S. Churchill

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zgs34j6

http://www.history.co.uk/study-topic...tle-of-britain

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...le-of-britain/

[Polak2]

I am very much newcomer to subsim community and, with the great interest, I am still in process of learning historical aspect of North Atlantic struggle during the war.
To drop my 2c on this interesting question I would say, that taking over France early in the war and establishing naval bases with direct access to Atlantic in Normandy coast of France was strategically sufficient to make English Channel less important.
Also, I think, of some importance was possible "cooperation" or rather outright competition of top German military leaders (Georing vs. Doenitz) in influencing Hitler's decision how to conduct the war in most swift and efficient manner. Goering was practically 2nd in command then.
Believing, that Luftwaffe can conquer England was one of Hitler's gravest and resource wasteful mistakes, underestimating U-Boat (or naval force in general) was even more serious and more decisive military blunder.

[De Ruyter]

Originally Posted by boonie

hmm i still dont really get it.. they practically had control over the entire french coastline. the radar thingy should be easily spoofed by low flying and there should be no AA all the way until they hit the water. i think their bf110 should be well suited to do some quicky rodeo over the waters. couple that with some observation stations over the coastline this should be pretty feasible... just cant stop wondering why it wasnt done properly..

As was mentioned, the BF110 pilots found out that they were totally outmatched, especially by Spitfires. The German tactic of bombing airfields was taking its toll, but then they switched to bombing London and other cities, giving Fighter Command a respite and enabling them to regroup and replace their losses. That was also a blunder on Germany's part.
Also as mentioned, England's radar setup was unmatched at the time. They had both long and short-ranged radar, and extensive spotters, so it would have been difficult to get in undetected, even at low altitudes. Had they gotten the HO229 back then, it would have been more feasible at the time, but that was developed too late in the war, and never saw service.

[Sniper297]

Can't believe all the pundits either.

1. Hugh Dowding (RAF fighter command chief) had a plan B - if the fighter losses got too great he would have pulled them back out of range of the 109 and waited for the invasion, accepting whatever damage that caused in southeast England.

2. The pundits often claim the ME-262 and HO-229 could have won the war for Germany if they had been produced sooner. False. The metallurgy for jet turbines was still being developed, and to withstand the heat and stress the steel alloy required high concentrations of tungsten and nickel. Tungsten was no problem, but 95% of the world's nickel was in Canada, which would have been unlikely to sell nickel to the Germans since Canada was on the Allied side. So the prototype JUMO jet engines had a MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) of 100 hours. Since the production engines couldn't be mass produced with the high nickel concentration, the turbines had a MTBF of 5 hours. So essentially every jet flight required both engines be changed after 1 or 2 sorties, and they still blew up in flight all too frequently.

[darkone999]

The bottom line is Germany had no chance to win a World War no matter what they tried and only made the loss come faster when they attacked Russia. Once the industrial might of America came to the war it was game over for Germany and japan. Every Smart Military leader of the time knew this to be true. I have to say it almost goes beyond belief the massive amount of military personnel,resources,research and equipment that America produced and brought to bear in such a short period time. No country in the world then could have stood up to that kind of power let alone try to fight half the world too. So in truth everything else is just cannon fodder. I do so love playing the underdog though..

Tim

[De Ruyter]

Originally Posted by Sniper297

Can't believe all the pundits either.

1. Hugh Dowding (RAF fighter command chief) had a plan B - if the fighter losses got too great he would have pulled them back out of range of the 109 and waited for the invasion, accepting whatever damage that caused in southeast England.

2. The pundits often claim the ME-262 and HO-229 could have won the war for Germany if they had been produced sooner. False. The metallurgy for jet turbines was still being developed, and to withstand the heat and stress the steel alloy required high concentrations of tungsten and nickel. Tungsten was no problem, but 95% of the world's nickel was in Canada, which would have been unlikely to sell nickel to the Germans since Canada was on the Allied side. So the prototype JUMO jet engines had a MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) of 100 hours. Since the production engines couldn't be mass produced with the high nickel concentration, the turbines had a MTBF of 5 hours. So essentially every jet flight required both engines be changed after 1 or 2 sorties, and they still blew up in flight all too frequently.

Dowding is the one who said that the nearness of London to German airbases would lose Germany the war. They may have won the battle of Britain, but for their switching to hitting British cities.
I only mentioned the HO229 in reference to radar, it would have been less detectable (but definitely not stealth). The way Hitler was running the war only hurt the German military so they would have been hard pressed to win anyway, best example being he wanted the ME262 used as a bomber.

[Sniper297]

Yeah, he did say that after the Germans started bombing London, my point is he did have a plan B in his pocket before that happened.

And yeah, long range reliable jet fighters and bombers COULD have won the war for Germany, nuclear subs could have also done it, but the technology simply didn't exist at the time.

[De Ruyter]

Originally Posted by Sniper297

And yeah, long range reliable jet fighters and bombers COULD have won the war for Germany, nuclear subs could have also done it, but the technology simply didn't exist at the time.

I hate to think of what they could have done with nuclear subs.

[boonie]

regarding the ho229, i doubt it would even be operational even if it the prototype was finished. because that thing does not have a tail fin, considering the F117 stealth fighter from the US with its minimal tail fin it still require a computer flight system to perform 100+ micro adjustment constantly to its control surfaces when it is flying in order to keep it stable, i dont think manual control over the completely absent tail fin ho229 will be feasible.

as for the topic of supremacy over the channel i think it is mainly a tactical blunder of the luftwaffe. failure to lend its aid to the KM in this matter.. also failing to develope a tactic and/or aircraft model to overcome the RAF. just my opinion.

if they could have avoided to open the eastern front against the soviet, they should have the resources to achieve this easily imo. new ships, new plane, much higher efforts, etc etc.

[Silavite]

Originally Posted by boonie

regarding the ho229, i doubt it would even be operational even if it the prototype was finished. because that thing does not have a tail fin, considering the F117 stealth fighter from the US with its minimal tail fin it still require a computer flight system to perform 100+ micro adjustment constantly to its control surfaces when it is flying in order to keep it stable, i dont think manual control over the completely absent tail fin ho229 will be feasible.

as for the topic of supremacy over the channel i think it is mainly a tactical blunder of the luftwaffe. failure to lend its aid to the KM in this matter.. also failing to develope a tactic and/or aircraft model to overcome the RAF. just my opinion.

if they could have avoided to open the eastern front against the soviet, they should have the resources to achieve this easily imo. new ships, new plane, much higher efforts, etc etc.

Flying wings were by no means impossible in the 1940's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_N-9M
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YB-49

The best move for Germany in 1940 instead of trying to invade Britain would be to invade the Iberian Peninsula and capture Gibraltar. If they could cut off the Med, it would put Britain and British troops in North Africa in a tight spot supply wise.
If they did it right, Germany might have even been able to snatch the Azores from the Portuguese during the Iberian Campaign when the RN wasn't looking and control the airbases there, though that would be difficult to orchestrate, and holding control of the Azores with an inferior navy doesn't seem very likely.