Things that bother me about "Iron Coffins"

Subnuts · 04-08-10, 08:46 PM

A few months ago, Neal asked me to write a review of Iron Coffins for the next almanac. As I'm not supposed to actually post the actual review on this forum, I thought I'd bring up some of the..."issues"...I have with Iron Coffins. In my view, this book is painfully overrated, factually dishonest, and shouldn't occupy the elevated position it holds in the U-boat "canon." So, here's a quick laundry list:

It's ridiculously high standing. Iron COffins is often thought of as a crowning masterpiece in the genre of submarine literature, the definitive account of life on a German U-boat, and a 100% factual account. Hasn't anyone ever heard of looking into secondary sources? I can study translated plans of U-570, read through Donitz's war diary, and examine the results of every convoy battle, all without having to fly to Germany and dig through old records.

The amount of blatant fabrication contained within. Werner has U-557 sinking seven ships on her first patrol, when only one was sunk in reality. He then has her sinking six ships on her third patrol, when again, only one was sunk. He then has U-230 attacking Convoy HX-229/SC-122, sinking seven ships of the 22 in total sunk from the two convoys. However, the boat never got close enough to either convoy to fire a single torpedo or shell at it! Finally, he describes attacking a convoy in January, 1945 near England, observing three distinct torpedo strikes. Official records fail to credit him with sinking or damaging a single ship during his career as a U-boat captain.

Werner's depiction of the Allied ASW effort. Based on Iron Coffins, Werner survived hundreds of aerial attacks, and several 30-hour long depth charge barrages. He's so lucky, though, that the Allies never used air-dropping homing torpedoes, Hedgehogs, sonobuoys, or hunter-killer groups against him. Considering the Allies has turned anti-submarine warfare into an artform by war's end, I find this hard to believe.

Werner's depiction of himself. He's a stereotypical "Good German" who happens to be politically neutral, has no opinion of the Nazis, stands up against the Gestapo when his father is arrested, and has only the classiest of affairs with French prost...I mean, ladies. Everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault, even when his boat gets sunk in harbor. He shoots down a plane single-handedly with an ancient machine gun and ends up in the French foreign legion. Seriously?

The reactions of U-boat veterans to the book has been glossed over. Jurgen Rohwer said that if one were to underline all of the errors in this book in red, it would look like a blood bath. The Association of German Submariners called it a "hack work totally without foundation." Iron Coffins was just as controversial as Das Boot when it came out, but people accept Herbert Werner more readily then they would Lothar-Gunther Buchheim. Why ignore these very real criticisms?

Werner's overall attitude. He wants us to pause and reflect on how horrible war is while embellishing on his wartime experiences. He writes a grim anti-war story while including exciting fabricated battle scenes to spice up the narrative and make it more palatable. I find this whole attitude condescending at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.

Okay, you can all hate me now.

Ducimus · 04-08-10, 08:59 PM

I admire your fortitude for posting the truth. For it's tantamount to burning a religious scripture in a place of worship in front of the followers. I admit, when i first started reading about U boats, i got totally caught up in the romance of it all.

Later on, i started questioning various things i have read or heard. I found many of the points you have listed, along with a couple other indirect points that are not listed. Though they are not my preference, I still enjoy U boats (I love WW2 diesal boats in general), but nowadays i am much more cautious in discerning fact from myth.

Westbroek · 04-08-10, 09:11 PM

I don't hate you Subnuts. Well played.

The truth is a stubborn thing.

mcarlsonus · 04-08-10, 10:27 PM

Since I'm almost universally hated anyway, I feel compelled to post I thought Thunder Below was also overrated and more a paean to the inflated ego and overinflated self-worth of Eugene Fluckey, the author and Captain of the USS Barb. The constant self-aggrandizing simply stuck in my craw. I, for one, remain unconvinced the Allies would've lost the Pacific War if not for, "Gene!"

Give me Clear the Bridge!: The War Patrols of the USS Tang by her Captain, Richard O'Kane anyday!

gimpy117 · 04-08-10, 10:52 PM

i think the reason there is not a lot of backlash is that there simply aren't that many U-boat vets around...

Nordmann · 04-08-10, 10:52 PM

Take Her Deep! by I. J. Galantin is a good read, it really captures the long and tedious nature of patrols in the Pacific, and the frequent disappointments of the crew. If anyone has yet to read it, I really would recommend it.

Westbroek · 04-08-10, 10:58 PM

Take Her Deep was a great read, though I did get a few raised eyebrows at the title.

Though it's also about fleet boats... everyone should read "Wahoo: The patrols of America's Most Famous Submarine." It's written by Richard O'Kane, the XO of the ship for 5 patrols (Wahoo was sunk on the 7th) who later captained the Tang, which sank from a circle-runner. He survived...it's an amazing story and he's an amazing captain and man. God rest him.

edit: Hey this is my 100th post, yay

mcarlsonus · 04-08-10, 11:01 PM

I really do wonder if part of the success of Iron Coffins is due to having the Foreword written by Edward Beach, the author of Run Silent, Run Deep and the first captain of a nuclear boat to circumnavigate the globe in USS Triton, 1960. The guy's a legend and still enjoys god-like status among the US Navy elite.

mcarlsonus · 04-08-10, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westbroek

Take Her Deep was a great read, though I did get a few raised eyebrows at the title.

Though it's also about fleet boats... everyone should read "Wahoo: The patrols of America's Most Famous Submarine." It's written by Richard O'Kane, the XO of the ship for 5 patrols (Wahoo was sunk on the 7th) who later captained the Tang, which sank from a circle-runner. He survived...it's an amazing story and he's an amazing captain and man. God rest him.

edit: Hey this is my 100th post, yay

Take Her Deep: A Submarine Against Japan in World War II was written by I. J. Galantin and concerns the author's command during the missions of the USS Halibut.

Nordmann · 04-08-10, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcarlsonus

Take Her Deep: A Submarine Against Japan in World War II was written by I. J. Galantin and concerns the author's command during the missions of the USS Halibut.

Indeed. No aggrandised achievements here, just his experiences.

Onkel Neal · 04-08-10, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westbroek

everyone should read "Wahoo: The patrols of America's Most Famous Submarine." It's written by Richard O'Kane, the XO of the ship for 5 patrols (Wahoo was sunk on the 7th) who later captained the Tang, which sank from a circle-runner. He survived...it's an amazing story and he's an amazing captain and man. God rest him.

And features Deadly Dudley, our best skipper up to that time.

mcarlsonus · 04-08-10, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

And features Deadly Dudley, our best skipper up to that time.

a.k.a. "Mushmouth," later shortened to, "Mush." Saw him recently in some US Navy WW2-era footage on...History Channel? Had him at the periscope, crouched down, chomping on cigar sticking out of the starboard side of the mouth, yelling orders...
they don't make 'em like that anymore. The US Navy Submarine forces recently decided the smoking lamp would never again be lit in the Boats!

Westbroek · 04-09-10, 12:05 AM

Morton...What a captain. What a character. Seriously the book is so chock full of great stories of the men he served with and peppered with so many subtle observations and recollections that it really requires more than one read through to be fully enjoyed. Highly recommend.

IanC · 04-09-10, 12:17 AM

The best part of Iron Coffins is when Werner casually mentions how he single handedly shot down an airplane with a WW1 water cooled machine gun!

Who's da man!

Having said that, I still think his book is one of the best out there, errors and all.
Just consider it a novel if you want, the book does what it's suppose to do, and I think it does it well.

BigBANGtheory · 04-09-10, 01:59 AM

I'm glad you said that, I got a 2nd hand copy off Amazon the other day and its ready and waiting to be started.

04-08-10, 08:46 PM	#1
Subnuts The Old Man Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 1,658 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Things that bother me about "Iron Coffins" A few months ago, Neal asked me to write a review of Iron Coffins for the next almanac. As I'm not supposed to actually post the actual review on this forum, I thought I'd bring up some of the..."issues"...I have with Iron Coffins. In my view, this book is painfully overrated, factually dishonest, and shouldn't occupy the elevated position it holds in the U-boat "canon." So, here's a quick laundry list: It's ridiculously high standing. Iron COffins is often thought of as a crowning masterpiece in the genre of submarine literature, the definitive account of life on a German U-boat, and a 100% factual account. Hasn't anyone ever heard of looking into secondary sources? I can study translated plans of U-570, read through Donitz's war diary, and examine the results of every convoy battle, all without having to fly to Germany and dig through old records. The amount of blatant fabrication contained within. Werner has U-557 sinking seven ships on her first patrol, when only one was sunk in reality. He then has her sinking six ships on her third patrol, when again, only one was sunk. He then has U-230 attacking Convoy HX-229/SC-122, sinking seven ships of the 22 in total sunk from the two convoys. However, the boat never got close enough to either convoy to fire a single torpedo or shell at it! Finally, he describes attacking a convoy in January, 1945 near England, observing three distinct torpedo strikes. Official records fail to credit him with sinking or damaging a single ship during his career as a U-boat captain. Werner's depiction of the Allied ASW effort. Based on Iron Coffins, Werner survived hundreds of aerial attacks, and several 30-hour long depth charge barrages. He's so lucky, though, that the Allies never used air-dropping homing torpedoes, Hedgehogs, sonobuoys, or hunter-killer groups against him. Considering the Allies has turned anti-submarine warfare into an artform by war's end, I find this hard to believe. Werner's depiction of himself. He's a stereotypical "Good German" who happens to be politically neutral, has no opinion of the Nazis, stands up against the Gestapo when his father is arrested, and has only the classiest of affairs with French prost...I mean, ladies. Everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault, even when his boat gets sunk in harbor. He shoots down a plane single-handedly with an ancient machine gun and ends up in the French foreign legion. Seriously? The reactions of U-boat veterans to the book has been glossed over. Jurgen Rohwer said that if one were to underline all of the errors in this book in red, it would look like a blood bath. The Association of German Submariners called it a "hack work totally without foundation." Iron Coffins was just as controversial as Das Boot when it came out, but people accept Herbert Werner more readily then they would Lothar-Gunther Buchheim. Why ignore these very real criticisms? Werner's overall attitude. He wants us to pause and reflect on how horrible war is while embellishing on his wartime experiences. He writes a grim anti-war story while including exciting fabricated battle scenes to spice up the narrative and make it more palatable. I find this whole attitude condescending at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst. Okay, you can all hate me now. __________________ My Amazon.com reviews

04-08-10, 10:52 PM	#5
gimpy117 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 3,243 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 0	i think the reason there is not a lot of backlash is that there simply aren't that many U-boat vets around... __________________ Member of the Subsim Zombie Army

04-08-10, 10:52 PM	#6
Nordmann Commodore Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: England Posts: 628 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	Take Her Deep! by I. J. Galantin is a good read, it really captures the long and tedious nature of patrols in the Pacific, and the frequent disappointments of the crew. If anyone has yet to read it, I really would recommend it. __________________ "I must confess that my imagination refuses to see any sort of submarine doing anything but suffocating its crew and floundering at sea." - H. G. Wells

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04-08-10, 08:59 PM	#2
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I admire your fortitude for posting the truth. For it's tantamount to burning a religious scripture in a place of worship in front of the followers. I admit, when i first started reading about U boats, i got totally caught up in the romance of it all. Later on, i started questioning various things i have read or heard. I found many of the points you have listed, along with a couple other indirect points that are not listed. Though they are not my preference, I still enjoy U boats (I love WW2 diesal boats in general), but nowadays i am much more cautious in discerning fact from myth.

04-08-10, 09:11 PM	#3
Westbroek Lieutenant Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: LA Posts: 256 Downloads: 121 Uploads: 0	I don't hate you Subnuts. Well played. The truth is a stubborn thing.

04-08-10, 10:27 PM	#4
mcarlsonus Weps Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 362 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	Since I'm almost universally hated anyway, I feel compelled to post I thought Thunder Below was also overrated and more a paean to the inflated ego and overinflated self-worth of Eugene Fluckey, the author and Captain of the USS Barb. The constant self-aggrandizing simply stuck in my craw. I, for one, remain unconvinced the Allies would've lost the Pacific War if not for, "Gene!" Give me Clear the Bridge!: The War Patrols of the USS Tang by her Captain, Richard O'Kane anyday!

04-08-10, 10:58 PM	#7
Westbroek Lieutenant Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: LA Posts: 256 Downloads: 121 Uploads: 0	Take Her Deep was a great read, though I did get a few raised eyebrows at the title. Though it's also about fleet boats... everyone should read "Wahoo: The patrols of America's Most Famous Submarine." It's written by Richard O'Kane, the XO of the ship for 5 patrols (Wahoo was sunk on the 7th) who later captained the Tang, which sank from a circle-runner. He survived...it's an amazing story and he's an amazing captain and man. God rest him. edit: Hey this is my 100th post, yay

04-08-10, 11:01 PM	#8
mcarlsonus Weps Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 362 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	I really do wonder if part of the success of Iron Coffins is due to having the Foreword written by Edward Beach, the author of Run Silent, Run Deep and the first captain of a nuclear boat to circumnavigate the globe in USS Triton, 1960. The guy's a legend and still enjoys god-like status among the US Navy elite.

04-09-10, 12:05 AM	#13
Westbroek Lieutenant Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: LA Posts: 256 Downloads: 121 Uploads: 0	Morton...What a captain. What a character. Seriously the book is so chock full of great stories of the men he served with and peppered with so many subtle observations and recollections that it really requires more than one read through to be fully enjoyed. Highly recommend.

04-09-10, 12:17 AM	#14
IanC Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Running silent and deep Posts: 902 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	The best part of Iron Coffins is when Werner casually mentions how he single handedly shot down an airplane with a WW1 water cooled machine gun! Who's da man! Having said that, I still think his book is one of the best out there, errors and all. Just consider it a novel if you want, the book does what it's suppose to do, and I think it does it well.

04-09-10, 01:59 AM	#15
BigBANGtheory Officer Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: British Waters Posts: 243 Downloads: 98 Uploads: 0	I'm glad you said that, I got a 2nd hand copy off Amazon the other day and its ready and waiting to be started.