is it the mod or have I just been lucky before?

[She-Wolf]

hello y'all. The year is 1941 ( christmas) and I am in the Asiatic fleet in charge of a diddy little boat - SS-18. I have left TMO for now ( though will be back as I now understand that my habit of repeatedly saving to the same name was what was causing gremlins) and am trying out RSRDC and RFB, and so far so good - BUT, I have noticed two things that are different.

The first is that I cannot get close enough to a convoy to get a big ship in range ( 3500 yards?) because the escorts pick me up even when I am way out, and the second is that Auxiliary subchasers suddenly seem to have bigger ears than I found to be the case in TMO.

In TMO I would often go up to Yaizu ( plenty of deep water close by) because I could be sure of getting a good haul of merchantmen in that bay, and had a reasonable chance of evading the warships - so I tried it in RFB/RSRDC after I had been set free from my patrol duties, tootled in under cover of darkness, and sat about 5 miles off Yaizu, waiting for dawn. I knew of, and was keeping an eye on a subchaser some two miles plus away, but felt I was safe as the engines were off, I was submerged and it was pitch black. Yet, somehow, he knew I was there - made a beeline for me, and even though I went below a thermal layer and to silent running, I could not shake him off. How did he know I was even there? IN TMO I have had subchasers looking for me round Wake Island and not knowing they had passed within feet, yet this guy seemed to have me pinpointed from over two miles away... I dinna understand it!! ( fun though).

Originally Posted by She-Wolf

Yet, somehow, he knew I was there - made a beeline for me, and even though I went below a thermal layer and to silent running, I could not shake him off. How did he know I was even there?

its just the game itself, it cheats, plain and simple. there will be lots of times a ship will do that too you and if you watch you will see ships change course and try to ram you because they know your exact position speed and course even carriers and BB but especially cruisers and DD. the best part is no matter what you do they rarely ever miss and can ram your conning tower with sniper accuracy lol.

it is a realism buzz kill for sure since the game would be so much more realistic if they put in some sort of less exact homing in on you and say had a built in error factor to knowing you position but sadly they dont although sometimes they do chase false contacts.

[She-Wolf]

aha... well, I got the little beastie. For some reason the boats seem to 'park up' at night, lying still and silent in the water for hours, which means, if you creep up careful and slow, you can get 'em. Only takes one fish with such a small craft. It doesn't add much to the tonnage but he was a pesky nuisance, stopping me from bagging a merchantman. Grr. Thank you Webster.

glad to help

even those who have been around a while see something new (and agrivating) about the game sometimes lol

the AI's cheat factor with the game often makes me say out loud "aww c'mon now!"

[Sniper297]

It does cheat all too often, I can't count how many times I've been working on an end-around where the wing escort, altho he hasn't sighted me, keeps edging further and further away from the convoy or task force forcing me further from the track - oh, it's just a coincidence he decided to make a sweep in my direction that changes from a sweep to an independent voyage?

That said, when they're not cheating there's an art to getting into firing position, the science comes after that. I forget if it was Run Silent Run Deep or the sequel Dust on the Sea, but one character said something like "anyone should be able to hit the target once you get in front of him, the trick is getting in front. A good attack starts with a good approach."



Heading directly toward the target is wrong, find out where he's going and get there first so you can be submerged and moving slowly, only needing a little maneuvering to go where you need to be. Move toward the track, not the target.



Detection circles for a destroyer - the outer ring is visual if you're on the surface and the lookouts are awake. Yellow is passive sonar, when you're inside that ring you need to be quiet. Red is active sonar, no matter how quiet you are you can be detected, so stay out of it. The range is about 750 yards, so active sonar sweeps a path 1500 yards wide. If the escort is holding a steady course the transparent red areas are the danger zones you want to stay out of, since the red active sonar arc will pass over you if you're in those zones when he arrives.



Once he passes ahead you can speed up a little provided the wing escort isn't already so close that he'll hear you, the trick is getting in through any available gap in the screen. In this case I got lucky since the wing escort on this side thought it was a good time to make an outward sweep.



Meat on the table, fire at the furthest first and try to time it so all the targets get hit about the same time. After the fish hit I kick out a decoy and go to flank speed and head for the bottom, going straight ahead under what's left of the convoy to cross under - it complicates the problem for the escorts since they'll initially be looking for you on the side the attack came from and if they figure out that you're crossing under they have to avoid colliding with all the merchants. Once under a layer slow down and go silent.

Odd thing about Sugar boats, I've started careers with Mark 10s and assumed that's all there is since the tubes in the S class were too short for the Mark 14. Not paying attention, I noticed that the second patrol starts with a mix of 10s and 14s, which is all wrong. Realistically the S boat has several problems;
1. Mark 10 torpedoes run slower and have less range, ideally the attack range should be 500 to 1000 yards, any run over 2000 yards is unlikely to hit anything.
2. Surface speed sucks, range sucks, sometimes you just have to let task forces and fast convoys go because you'd run out of fuel and the war would end before you finally got in front of them.
3. I don't know if the actual battery recharge rate for S boats was THAT bad, but in the stock game it takes 2 days to recharge 50%. Best use of an S boat in career is to cruise up and down the east coast of Luzon, where you'll find a lot of slow fat merchants steaming alone or in pairs without escorts. Some have deck guns, so it's best to make a standard approach and examine through the periscope when he gets close - if you see a deck gun shoot the torpedo, no deck gun then surface and sink him with your deck gun.

[She-Wolf]

gosh Sniper... I'm impressed....!

[Sniper297]

Let me know how it works out, how impressive a tutorial actually is depends on how successful the reader is after applying it. Obviously with 100% realism it's more difficult since without the map contact update you need two fairly good range and bearing points to plot the target track. And of course the escorts are aware of the limitations of active sonar so the good ones weave back and forth across the track line to broaden the danger area.

The principle remains the same tho, don't move toward the target since a sub underwater can't move that fast, move to where the target is going to be and let him come to you. Ideally you should be facing the track at a 90 degree angle, 1000 yards from the track when the target reaches the firing point.

[TorpX]

Nice presentation. How long did you say you taught at the Naval Academy?

[Sniper297]

I cheat, I have god-like powers from all the RPG games I play.



Actually it's a lifelong passion as strong as trains for me, my Dad took me to the Chicago Theater to see Run Silent Run Deep when I was a kid and I always wanted to be a submariner. Consequently I read every submarine book I could lay my hands on as soon as I was old enough to read.
Don't ask how I ended up in anti-submarine warfare instead, it's a long story involving alcohol and a Navy recruiter who had billets to fill.

[Sniper297]

I suppose I should add this - the original poster stated;

I cannot get close enough to a convoy to get a big ship in range ( 3500 yards?) because the escorts pick me up even when I am way out

I'll be covering what some people will consider obvious, but a common n00b mistake;



There's the enemy, head toward him and speed up!



But that's not gonna work because he's moving, not only will he be somewhere else when you get to where he is when you start, the high speed running will attract attention and deplete batteries. A surface attack at night is difficult to pull off and requires ideal conditions, any submerged attack should never be done from the side or behind.



Instead you stay outside the visual detection range of the escorts, turn parallel to the target's course, go to full speed and perform what's called an "END-AROUND" to get in front without being seen.



It takes time and patience but the idea is to pass him then move toward the track when you're ahead of him, don't get too close but don't get so far away that you lose contact either.



This is much harder with map contact updates off, but you want to stay at least 5 miles away from the nearest escort all the way. So when you arrive at the track you should be 5-10 miles ahead of the convoy/task force and ready to submerge, maneuver to a good firing position, and go silent before he gets there. The previous clipboard bragging I did different from the usual convoy, there were two columns of battleships and carriers about 1000 yards apart so I postioned my sub between the tracks facing parallel instead of perpendicular. Then I went down to find the layer, went 50 feet below that (the BT detector like the depth sensor is on the keel, if the thermal layer is at 160 feet you have to go down to 210 feet so the whole sub including conning tower is under the layer) and watched the sonar. As soon as the lead escort passed I rose to periscope depth and started firing bow and stern (Sargo class, four tubes at each end) at the furthest targets first, then the closer ones. The leading ships in both columns had already passed when periscope depth was reached so the sequence was last left, last right, spin the scope around and fire at first right and first left, then back around to third left and right, by which time the second in each column was past me close aboard so pop one at each. Shortly after all hell broke loose SIR! and a couple of the battleships required another fish. Next is get back below the layer and go quiet, discretion is the better part of valor.

[She-Wolf]

Sniper dear heart, I see all that you say makes perfect sense and have no argument with it. When in a Porpoise or equipped with the later torps I have had some success, now and then, to 'bag a biggie' using a creep toward and stay quiet and on the fringe until the escorts are passed strategy. However, can I ask whatI ought to have done differently in this mission? I was starting a new career based in Manila in an SS-18 with torps that only have a range of 3500 yards. I was cruising up the Luzon Straits, minding my own biz, on the way to my patrol area when I saw a huge battlefleet coming straight toward me. With eyes like saucers I waited and watched until I could pick out which would be the best target and how I needed to place my sub for a 90 degree shot - but of course I would have to be a lot closer in with such short-range torpedoes - so I started edging forward at 1/3rd with the intention of getting close enough and then swinging round as the ship passed. Well, never got that far as the escorts knew I was there long before I got into range of the big boys, and started dc'ing my position. I tried several times,going back to the save and attempting a different angle but each time the escorts found me and I eventually retired and watched my prize steam away untouched. Should I have gone deep? Should I have switched off engines ( but then how would I get close enough to attack)? I am sure a REAL skipper would have done something, but I snuk off with my tail between my legs....
ps this is in summer 1941

[Sniper297]

If it was summer 1941 you'll be explaining at the court martial why you thought it was a good idea to declare war on Japan 6 months before Pearl Harbor. Actually I don't know, S boats are a serious handicap to start with, the AI does cheat in the stock game sometimes. Without map updates them drunken lubbers on the deck watch repeatedly lose sight of an escort then report him as a new contact as he weaves back and forth, but don't think it's important to mention "uh, skipper, that tin can I reported earlier is getting closer now". 100% realism is not realistic simply because any lookout, sonar or radar operator should know enough to not report the same contact over and over if he's weaving back and forth in and out of contact range, it's ludicrous to keep reporting the same target as a new contact. Then the damned thing turns toward you long enough to see you, goes to full speed on a collision course, but since he's been in sight the whole time none of them scurvy dogs think it's important enough to mention it so you're completely unaware until the first shell hits. The whole crew needs Ritalin for that ADHD.

The mega mods like TMO might be different, I haven't tried any of them yet but probably will over the next month or so just to see what all the fuss is about. Lacking other info my guess is unless it IS a cheat they already detected you earlier than you thought, so your earliest save was already too late. One trick you could try is note the coordinates of that mongo task force then go back to a save long before you encountered them, proceed at speed to that same spot to see if they show up consistently. I've done that in the stock game a number of times, most would consider it cheating but I prefer to think of it as better intelligence reports from the purple machine boys.



Contact report, 600 miles away, by the time I get there he could be anyplace. So save the game and accelerate time while just sitting still, see where he goes.



New contact report 2 days later, note the position 16.5 N 116.8E. Reload the save game, mosey on over to that spot and wait two days for him to show up.



Again that's with a Sargo and I was lucky enough to sink 6 ships with 8 shots, if it was an S class I'd target a single battleship as close as I could get with a spread of four and call it good. Problems with saving and reloading when they're right on top of you, the torpedo settings and gyro angles do not save, so don't even bother saving the minute before firing since you'll never have time to set it all up again. Be set up and ready directly in front of them before they arrive and save it there.

[Wolferz]

That early war task force that you want to hit with your old WW I tub is headed for Manila to invade the joint. So, lets's cheat a little with some intel from the coast watchers we dropped off in Japan. After you debark from Manila, head straight up the western coast and park yourself in that western Luzon bay and wait for them to arrive. There are numerous troop transports and a few juicy cruisers to go along with a plethora of DDs.
Good luck.

[She-Wolf]

thanks for the tips boys - useful because in previous careers I have started from Pearl Harbour and with a more-up-to-date boat and torps, S-boats and Asiatic fleet is new t me

[Sniper297]

Worst trouble with Pearl is it takes forever to get anyplace, you might as well be starting in Nebraska for all the time it takes to get to the patrol area. Asiatic sucks after Java gets taken, so I hacked something with the mission editor - i forget what - to place a tender and some destroyers at Mios Woendi and made that the new home port instead of Freemantle after Java goes down.

Just finished downloading TMO 2-5, I'll try a Sugar boat in that and see if I can duplicate the AI cheating.