tactical question vis-a-vis historical/realistic

[schlechter pfennig]

Ok, gots a question for all you Kaleuns out here.

It's 10 June 1940, and 0430 hours. 15mps seas, overcast skies, moderate visibility. After receiving a convoy contact report I plotted an intercept and headed there. Once there I came to all stop and waited, bobbing like a cork.

Eventually the convoy did come into view. It took until the lead escort was about 7km out before I could with the binoculars, get an approximate idea of their course, heading and AoB to me.

Considering they were approaching towards my 90 I decided I might want to, ah . . . shift a little. I manuevered until I was facing them and, as well, flooded down enough to go deck awash (which had my watch crew complaining about wet feet, the wussies! )

It's taken them quite a while to approach, and I've been keeping my eye on the lead escort. Right about 2 - 2.5 km away, and at 30 or so degrees to my starboard, I noticed his silhouette profile changing, becoming narrower . . . and I was pretty sure it wasn't because she'd just up and decided to head away from me!

I went to ahead slow then, once at periscope depth, went to silent running. My intention was to quietly creep past the lead escort then, using both hydrophones and attack periscope, manuevering between two lanes of ships. Since I couldn't really see detail through the scope as black as it is, all I'm doing is looking for shadowy blobs to confirm what the hydrophone is indicating. Then, once in position, going to flank and surfacing, doing a hard 90 turn and firing fore and aft, as the distances should be somewhere between 500 - 1,000 meters between me and them.

My question is . . . is this a realistic and/or historical tactic? I know night surface attacks are, but were there ever instances where U-boats stayed submerged only to abruptly surface once in attack range?

[toodrunk]

A long while back, I read a book called The Good Shepard. It chronicles a destroyer captain in WWII escorting a convoy across the Atlantic. I am fairly certain it was a "True fiction" book, written as a fiction but a true story nonetheless.

In it a U-boat surfaces after breaking contact at the head of a convoy row and begins opening up with the 88, moving the opposite direction that the convoy was.

I recall the book called the u-boat captain "either incredibly brave, or incredibly stupid"

[schlechter pfennig]

Originally Posted by toodrunk

A long while back, I read a book called The Good Shepard. It chronicles a destroyer captain in WWII escorting a convoy across the Atlantic. I am fairly certain it was a "True fiction" book, written as a fiction but a true story nonetheless.

In it a U-boat surfaces after breaking contact at the head of a convoy row and begins opening up with the 88, moving the opposite direction that the convoy was.

I recall the book called the u-boat captain "either incredibly brave, or incredibly stupid"

Well then, I guess I'm incredibly brave!

[Capt. Morgan]

Originally Posted by schlechter pfennig

...
My question is . . . is this a realistic and/or historical tactic? I know night surface attacks are, but were there ever instances where U-boats stayed submerged only to abruptly surface once in attack range?

Historic or not - I cannot say, but in SHIII's world, the instant you reveal your self to the enemy (through exploding torpedos for instance) every ship with searchlights will turn them on, and the escorts will fire star-shells, turning the night into day. You don't want to be on the surface at that time.

[RConch]

Originally Posted by Capt. Morgan

Historic or not - I cannot say, but in SHIII's world, the instant you reveal your self to the enemy (through exploding torpedos for instance) every ship with searchlights will turn them on, and the escorts will fire star-shells, turning the night into day. You don't want to be on the surface at that time.

Also some of the merchants are armed and appear to be rather good shots even in bad weather and rough seas.
Personal experience.

[Hitman]

I think that a real UBoat commander in June 1940 would not have submerged. When submerging you lose command of the situation and it is a highly undesirable situation. The proper action to take if the escort is pointing at you is changing course to run away from him. You show him your tail (narrow silhouette) and creep away at moderate speed, not making much noise, in the same direction as the convoy is heading (So you are not overtaken and do not lose your good tactical position abeam). Then if the escort has not seen you and continues the routine search by turning away and making another sweep, you can turn 90º again and approach the convoy more. If he sees you, you can risk running at flank speed away, and if it is a trawler he will lose you. But if he detects you and you are submerging/submerged, you will be kept under until the convoys is too far away.

I would therefore say: Stay surfaced!

If you are seen and after running at flank speed for a while the escort is gaining ground, you can always crash dive and try to evade. Also, if you are close enough to the convoy it might be worth it heading submerged at flank speed towards it, so that the escrot has a more difficult life in following and depth charging you between the convoy's columns. Also, I would strongly advice to keep the tubes open and a provisional firing solution set at any moment. That way, you can alsways shoot a salvo before crashdiving, and you might both get a good shot and kill something, and cause chaos in the convoys and evade more easily.

[Immelman]

Personally even in the pre radar years if I am in a good forward position then I will submerge and move in on the convoy and engage at close range submerged. It is not historical true because most of the commanders preferred to attack on the surface.

But I don't see why some consider this wrong. If anything is harder to select your targets and keep track of the escorts only with your scope and hydrophone (100% realism) Besides its good practice for the later years

[maillemaker]

By far, in SH3 the safest approach is always submerged, hitting the front flank of the convoy so that when done properly you are within 500m of the flank of the convoy just as they pass in front of you.

This way you avoid the lead escort and the flank escort.

Steve

[schlechter pfennig]

Originally Posted by Capt. Morgan

Historic or not - I cannot say, but in SHIII's world, the instant you reveal your self to the enemy (through exploding torpedos for instance) every ship with searchlights will turn them on, and the escorts will fire star-shells, turning the night into day. You don't want to be on the surface at that time.

Quite the prophet I see!

I'd stay submerged, listening to the escort (a nasty Black Swan at that) slowly cruise by, then altered course back and forth a bit to insinuate myself between lanes. I used the hydrophone and periscope to do that, but all I 'let myself see' with the periscope were shadowy blobs that at least let me estimate my position.

There was a huge ship right in the front, which sorta sucked as that meant the lead escort was pretty close, too. When I estimated the range to be under 1,000 meters I surfaced as I turned, and when I reached the bridge my main target (which turned out to be a large cargo ship! Whoo-hoo!) was 400 meters right in front of me and as close to 90 degrees AoB as to make no difference.

I fired off my last two fore tubes at her then looked behind me. A smaller merchant was just passing astern, so I aimed at her. Before I could really even start computing anything *Boom!* *Boom!* so I took a snapshot, called for a ninety degree course change taking me through the convoy and their rear and went to ahead flank.

Next thing I knew I had about 15 searchlights spotlighting me. And an upset Black Swan engaging me! Let me tell you, situations like those make me long for the halcyon days of my old VIIB, cuz crash-diving in an IXB seems to take forever!

End result was a sunk large cargo and a damaged medium cargo, and the escorts never did come close to me!

('Course, I somehow 'spect that, come late '42 and onwards, that ain't gonna be that easy no moh!)

[Capt. Morgan]

Originally Posted by schlechter pfennig

...

Next thing I knew I had about 15 searchlights spotlighting me. And an upset Black Swan engaging me! Let me tell you, situations like those make me long for the halcyon days of my old VIIB, cuz crash-diving in an IXB seems to take forever!
....)

Oh man, what a situation for a type IX Kauleun to find himself in!

Congratulations on the tonnage, the story, and especially on surviving. I think you could use a mod that turns your crews hair white as the patrol progresses.

Two points that you may or may not be aware of...

1) Even in the early war, tankers can be armed with large caliber deck guns (not the 20mm pop-guns usually found on merchies).

2) Large convoys will sometimes have a full battleship escorting them - located right in the middle. They put out a lot of fire (like 16 guns at once if you're unlucky enough to be on their broadside) and they're really good shots.

[schlechter pfennig]

Originally Posted by Capt. Morgan

Oh man, what a situation for a type IX Kauleun to find himself in!

Congratulations on the tonnage, the story, and especially on surviving. I think you could use a mod that turns your crews hair white as the patrol progresses.

Two points that you may or may not be aware of...

1) Even in the early war, tankers can be armed with large caliber deck guns (not the 20mm pop-guns usually found on merchies).

2) Large convoys will sometimes have a full battleship escorting them - located right in the middle. They put out a lot of fire (like 16 guns at once if you're unlucky enough to be on their broadside) and they're really good shots.

I wasn't aware of the first one, no, but I was aware of the second, having twice encountered just that. I was pretty sure that wasn't the case this time, though, as I'd had a bit of time to do a very slow, very thorough manual hydrophone sweep, and the screw sounds of a BB are quite unmistakable.

And I dunno about the crews hair turning white, but my skivvies had certainly turned brown!

[schlechter pfennig]

Ok, now this is just truly hysterical.

Sept 5, 1940, I and my valiant crew are on the way to DJ12 when, in CG42 at 0129 we receive a contact report: large enemy convoy.

Plotting it we're less than 40km away, with them heading right towards us on their SE course. Plotting an intercept we arrive and spot them less than 30 minutes later.

Again I'm on the surface, and again I decide to go to periscope depth as a black swan meanders my way. This time, however . . .

Something starts sounding weird as I follow them on the hydrophone so I decide to take a quick peek with the observation 'scope, and my jaw drops (as do a few choice words) as I see the entire convoy going through a course change! Instead of heading reasonably right towards me, they've appeared to have altered course about 45 degrees at a point around 3 - 4km ahead of my position. Sheisse!

Don't have a lot of choice here, so I gradually bring us up, surface and go to ahead standard at decks awash. Somehow --no idea how-- I approach the port outside lane to within 1,500 meters.

Around 3KM I can unmistakably identify the silouhette of a large tanker and I start getting buck fever. I have two G7a and two G7e in the fore tubes, and one each in the aft. This really sucks as I also have, closer, what appears to be a large cargo and a large merchant, the cargo in the outermost lane adjacent to me and the merchant the next one in.

Coming to a dead stop I start trying to calculate eel run times. Not exactly easy to do when you're expecting that nasty escort to notice your conning tower bobbing up and down at any minute.

I'm still not sure how I managed it, but I fired both G7e at the tanker, counted down the seconds, fired the first G7a at the merchant, counted down again before finally firing the last G7a at the large cargo, which was now dead ahead of me and less than 800 meters away.

Having learned my searchlight lesson from before (see above! ) I immediately dove and turned, and was just going under when the first torpedo exploded. In fact, all four exploded within 15 seconds of each other!

Now here is where is starts getting hysterical. I'm at 30 meters when I start hearing from above the unmistakable sounds of main guns firing. I figgered they were firing star shells but, after hearing ten rounds, I went 'Huh?'. So I peeked up using external and started laughing.

There were, yes, star shells above. Probably at least twenty. But every escort but one (and one of the bigger merchants) were all firing all the way to the other side, at some poor dumb warship!

Don't know what the outcome of that was, but it gave me a lot more time to duck and run!

[Jimbuna]

I'd have to agree with Hitman and add...

My question is . . . is this a realistic and/or historical tactic? I know night surface attacks are, but were there ever instances where U-boats stayed submerged only to abruptly surface once in attack range?

IMHO that is very much unrealistic, a kaleun would not heighten the chances of losing the element of suprise prior to launching his initial attack.

[schlechter pfennig]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I'd have to agree with Hitman and add... IMHO that is very much unrealistic, a kaleun would not heighten the chances of losing the element of suprise prior to launching his initial attack.

Well darn and drat. And here I was feeling all warm and fuzzy about two successful surface attacks.

OK, general consensus seems to be do whatever it took to manuever on the surface, still remain (hopefully) undetected while keeping course options open to run in for the attack, yes?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by schlechter pfennig

Well darn and drat. And here I was feeling all warm and fuzzy about two successful surface attacks.

OK, general consensus seems to be do whatever it took to manuever on the surface, still remain (hopefully) undetected while keeping course options open to run in for the attack, yes?

Either that or remain submerged and see the initial attck through whilst being prepared to crash dive deeper if the escorts go active and are headed in your direction.