Battle of Santa Cruz

Armistead · 08-31-09, 03:36 PM

RR, if you read this what would you do. Setting up an OKane attack. Ship speed is 14knts. Would you still use a 10 degree lead angle or 20. Think I will split the difference. Rather do a 45, but can't close enough, but may be able to turn in.

Anyone ever got involved with this battle playing RSRD? Think I've been in every battle but this one and I finally found the BB TF, but just starting my tracking. Hope to bag a Kongo. Hopefully I can find the carrier TF later. Never studied this one much, but really one heck of a battle.

I'm going in...Got a perfect 90 track on a Kongo...if I can close the range..Contacts off, hope I don't goof it.

Munchausen · 08-31-09, 04:02 PM

A long time ago, RR suggested I use 1.5 degrees lead for each knot of target speed ... if you're using fast torpedoes. For slow torps, 2 degrees per knot. Consequently, I never missed a shot.

Armistead · 08-31-09, 05:01 PM

Well they heard me....don't know how. The front dd past and I was in his stern. The flank dd was behind me about 2000 yards and when he turned towards me he started pinging, so they started zigging and all were doing different speeds. Kongo at 1000 yards but bad angles.

Shot 6.. a CA speed faster than the Kongo and got in the path and took one that would've hit. Had a nice spread, two prematures. Three split the gap perfect and one hit but was a dud. By this time I flanked hard turn and left go four at him. Gonna hit something for sure but 3 went right between two ships and hit the Kongo turning away..perfect spread....Sunk him.

Now escaping....will go after the other one. They should slow down since one ship is damaged. Gonna be a long battle. Have kept my Gar.....wish I took the Gato, I need to go deep and I'm pushing it now.

Rockin Robbins · 08-31-09, 05:33 PM

Every attack is different in the way it plays out. And when your careful plans blow up on you, it happens suddenly. That's half of the fun of this game!

Just keep in mind that there's nothing special about my rules of thumb on lead angle. If you use 10 degrees when you should have used 20, you just hit the target 10 degrees later along its track. If you're early in the war, you might want to do that on purpose to avoid a perfect right angle impact, which often results in a dud.

If you actually are having trouble picking the lead angle, just check the Dick O'Kane method with a vector analysis of the same attack. That will tell you the perfect lead angle for a 90º torpedo track angle.

The guide I gave Munchausen works just as well as anything else you can use. The Dick O'Kane technique is so darned forgiving that you can get away with murder and still hit targets.

That's why it works so well for map updates off. 10 degrees difference from a perfect 90º to the track doesn't faze it a bit! The only truly critical parameter is target speed.

Armistead · 08-31-09, 05:39 PM

I was basically going by your cards...10 lead for below 15, 20 above 15kts. I just split the difference and used a 15 degree angle since they were going 14knts...course getting heard screwed that all up anyway. I usually drops a few knots when they speed up. Finally escaped. Bout crapped when I got to scope and the CA was dead in the water 1000 yards away...so finished him off.

Chasing the rest and another TF has showed up west of them, but not sure what's in it...hope it's the carriers.

The hard thing for me is when I get found, just about have to throw everything out and just line em up the best you can. I just hate that stad and all but refuse to use it.

Edit...that other TF was coming back towards me. I was lining up on another Kongo and noticed all the ships were shooting. Turns out US carrier planes are attacking in mass. Hope they leave some big cripples...love it when the battle is historically perfect........got two in another Kongo. Cool watching planes drop bombs through the scope. He's still making good speed. Got about 6 US pilots in the water that need saving. Down to one torpedo. So do I save pilots or chase a limping Kongo with one torp......poor pilots. Sure hope the planes come back and help stop that kongo. with about 12 dd's. Very large TG, about 30 ships.

DigitalAura · 09-01-09, 11:59 AM

I get the lead angle thing...but I don't get the intercept angle of 45. I thought 90 was the best? Can you explain this? Most of my duds explode within 300 yards of my boat...I've never seen one hit and not detonate.
when you say 45 degrees do you mean in front of the target or behind the target?

Armistead · 09-01-09, 04:37 PM

Attacking from 45 degree angle instead of a 90 degree..the Cromwell attack. It's in RR's Skippers bag of tricks, just look for Cromwell 45..something like that.

What I like better is approaching at a 45 degree angle your boat is coming in at a more narrow profile. Plus, early war your torps are coming in at a better angle. Then you can always turn port and bring your stern tubes in much faster.

It's the same principle, just draw a 45 approach angle instead of 90, then all the same rules apply. instead of using 90-lead angle, it's 45-lead angle.

08-31-09, 03:36 PM	#1
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Battle of Santa Cruz RR, if you read this what would you do. Setting up an OKane attack. Ship speed is 14knts. Would you still use a 10 degree lead angle or 20. Think I will split the difference. Rather do a 45, but can't close enough, but may be able to turn in. Anyone ever got involved with this battle playing RSRD? Think I've been in every battle but this one and I finally found the BB TF, but just starting my tracking. Hope to bag a Kongo. Hopefully I can find the carrier TF later. Never studied this one much, but really one heck of a battle. I'm going in...Got a perfect 90 track on a Kongo...if I can close the range..Contacts off, hope I don't goof it.

08-31-09, 05:33 PM	#4
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	Every attack is different in the way it plays out. And when your careful plans blow up on you, it happens suddenly. That's half of the fun of this game! Just keep in mind that there's nothing special about my rules of thumb on lead angle. If you use 10 degrees when you should have used 20, you just hit the target 10 degrees later along its track. If you're early in the war, you might want to do that on purpose to avoid a perfect right angle impact, which often results in a dud. If you actually are having trouble picking the lead angle, just check the Dick O'Kane method with a vector analysis of the same attack. That will tell you the perfect lead angle for a 90º torpedo track angle. The guide I gave Munchausen works just as well as anything else you can use. The Dick O'Kane technique is so darned forgiving that you can get away with murder and still hit targets. That's why it works so well for map updates off. 10 degrees difference from a perfect 90º to the track doesn't faze it a bit! The only truly critical parameter is target speed. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

08-31-09, 05:39 PM	#5
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	I was basically going by your cards...10 lead for below 15, 20 above 15kts. I just split the difference and used a 15 degree angle since they were going 14knts...course getting heard screwed that all up anyway. I usually drops a few knots when they speed up. Finally escaped. Bout crapped when I got to scope and the CA was dead in the water 1000 yards away...so finished him off. Chasing the rest and another TF has showed up west of them, but not sure what's in it...hope it's the carriers. The hard thing for me is when I get found, just about have to throw everything out and just line em up the best you can. I just hate that stad and all but refuse to use it. Edit...that other TF was coming back towards me. I was lining up on another Kongo and noticed all the ships were shooting. Turns out US carrier planes are attacking in mass. Hope they leave some big cripples...love it when the battle is historically perfect........got two in another Kongo. Cool watching planes drop bombs through the scope. He's still making good speed. Got about 6 US pilots in the water that need saving. Down to one torpedo. So do I save pilots or chase a limping Kongo with one torp......poor pilots. Sure hope the planes come back and help stop that kongo. with about 12 dd's. Very large TG, about 30 ships. Last edited by Armistead; 08-31-09 at 06:20 PM.

09-01-09, 11:59 AM	#6
DigitalAura Straight and True Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: CANADA Posts: 276 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	I get the lead angle thing...but I don't get the intercept angle of 45. I thought 90 was the best? Can you explain this? Most of my duds explode within 300 yards of my boat...I've never seen one hit and not detonate. when you say 45 degrees do you mean in front of the target or behind the target? __________________ ... ALL YOUR BEACH ARE BELONG TO US! ...

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08-31-09, 04:02 PM	#2
Munchausen Commodore Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 608 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 1	A long time ago, RR suggested I use 1.5 degrees lead for each knot of target speed ... if you're using fast torpedoes. For slow torps, 2 degrees per knot. Consequently, I never missed a shot.

08-31-09, 05:01 PM	#3
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Well they heard me....don't know how. The front dd past and I was in his stern. The flank dd was behind me about 2000 yards and when he turned towards me he started pinging, so they started zigging and all were doing different speeds. Kongo at 1000 yards but bad angles. Shot 6.. a CA speed faster than the Kongo and got in the path and took one that would've hit. Had a nice spread, two prematures. Three split the gap perfect and one hit but was a dud. By this time I flanked hard turn and left go four at him. Gonna hit something for sure but 3 went right between two ships and hit the Kongo turning away..perfect spread....Sunk him. Now escaping....will go after the other one. They should slow down since one ship is damaged. Gonna be a long battle. Have kept my Gar.....wish I took the Gato, I need to go deep and I'm pushing it now.

09-01-09, 04:37 PM	#7
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Attacking from 45 degree angle instead of a 90 degree..the Cromwell attack. It's in RR's Skippers bag of tricks, just look for Cromwell 45..something like that. What I like better is approaching at a 45 degree angle your boat is coming in at a more narrow profile. Plus, early war your torps are coming in at a better angle. Then you can always turn port and bring your stern tubes in much faster. It's the same principle, just draw a 45 approach angle instead of 90, then all the same rules apply. instead of using 90-lead angle, it's 45-lead angle.