And this was in Slate

Onkel Neal · 01-14-09, 02:12 AM

Why are so many oligarchs, royal families, and special-interest groups giving money to the Clinton Foundation?

Quote:

Here is a thought experiment that does not take very much thought. Picture, if you will, Hillary Clinton facing a foreign-policy conundrum. With whom will she discuss it first and most intently: with her president or her husband? (I did tell you that this wouldn't be difficult.) Here's another one: Will she be swayed in her foreign-policy decisions by electoral considerations focusing on the year 2012, and, if so, will she be swayed by President Barack Obama's interests or her own?

Worrisome, but she's expected to sail through the nom process, isn't she?

NealT · 01-14-09, 06:21 AM

The interesting thing to me, anyway, is that this is how it really works in the real world anyway...back room deals made out of the public view and eye...so are we not just moving the back room stuff out into the front room so everyone can see it?

Skybird · 01-14-09, 06:46 AM

Not that it is not the same at the other end of the political american spectrum... Lobbyism has become integral part of politics. In a democratic system, transparency and independance of politicians is a must - there cannot be a democratic system without transparency and independance from pirvate lobbies and business. Both conditions are not only not fulfilled, but are totally messed up. That'S why the system is screwed. Andn that is why I say since years we have no democracies left in the West - only oligarchies and plutocracies. Money rules politics now. It pays agencies to tell the public it all is democratic nevertheless.

On the other hand: in a democracy the vote or opinion of a stupid bada$$ counts as much and is valued as much as that of a noble highly intelligent mind. Shall nobody say democracy would be an ideal solution. It is not.

TDK1044 · 01-14-09, 07:16 AM

And as a matter of constitutional law, America is not a Democracy, it's a Republic. It's a sad indictment of our education system that most Americans don't even know that fact.

I really don't mind what Hillary Clinton's personal agenda is, as long as we see a significant improvement in our foreign policy over the next four years.

The world is already a very fragile place, and with more and more Americans demanding much less dependency on foreign oil, and much more investment in home grown initiatives as we strive for self sufficiency, having a smart and stready hand on the foreign policy rudder is now more important than ever in my view.

Skybird · 01-14-09, 07:22 AM

Republic or not, it surely is a democratic republic - not a totalitarian run republic or a communist people's republic, right? You guys really make a fetish of such wordgames that in the end lead to nothing.

TDK1044 · 01-14-09, 08:36 AM

A failure to Understand the nature of our Republic and the Electoral College that supports it leads to naive misconceptions in Europe and the rest of the world.

AVGWarhawk · 01-14-09, 08:47 AM

In short, she was a poor choice.

TDK1044 · 01-14-09, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

In short, she was a poor choice.

Yes. Promises were made in order to get her support. But it is what it is, AVG.

AVGWarhawk · 01-14-09, 09:45 AM

Oh, absolutely! There were back room meetings if you recall. That old saying still rings true today...Keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer..... Hillary will be running in 2012. I hope Obama does well but I sense a fizzle coming our way. She can enter stage left in 2012 and take all. She just needs to keep Bill at bay for now

UnderseaLcpl · 01-14-09, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Republic or not, it surely is a democratic republic - not a totalitarian run republic or a communist people's republic, right? You guys really make a fetish of such wordgames that in the end lead to nothing.

And on that note, I'd prefer "representative democracy", instead. Democratic Republic brings to mind the Democratic Republic of Congo.

August · 01-14-09, 10:10 AM

Skybird · 01-14-09, 10:12 AM

Well, Germany is a republic, too. We just do not make such a fuss about it. We leave that to the French - they are still counting.

UnderseaLcpl · 01-14-09, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Well, Germany is a republic, too. We just do not make such a fuss about it. We leave that to the French - they are still counting.

You mean you leave it to the French most of the time:rotfl:

Sorry, I kid.

Skybird · 01-14-09, 10:43 AM

No, no kidding. It's the second republic for us - but their fifth for them.

Kapitan_Phillips · 01-14-09, 11:12 AM

lolfrance

01-14-09, 06:21 AM	#2
NealT Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: 2 Meters Below Jimbuna Posts: 1,060 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	The interesting thing to me, anyway, is that this is how it really works in the real world anyway...back room deals made out of the public view and eye...so are we not just moving the back room stuff out into the front room so everyone can see it? __________________

01-14-09, 06:46 AM	#3
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,624 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Not that it is not the same at the other end of the political american spectrum... Lobbyism has become integral part of politics. In a democratic system, transparency and independance of politicians is a must - there cannot be a democratic system without transparency and independance from pirvate lobbies and business. Both conditions are not only not fulfilled, but are totally messed up. That'S why the system is screwed. Andn that is why I say since years we have no democracies left in the West - only oligarchies and plutocracies. Money rules politics now. It pays agencies to tell the public it all is democratic nevertheless. On the other hand: in a democracy the vote or opinion of a stupid bada$$ counts as much and is valued as much as that of a noble highly intelligent mind. Shall nobody say democracy would be an ideal solution. It is not. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-14-09, 07:22 AM	#5
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,624 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Republic or not, it surely is a democratic republic - not a totalitarian run republic or a communist people's republic, right? You guys really make a fetish of such wordgames that in the end lead to nothing. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-14-09, 08:47 AM	#7
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,256 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	In short, she was a poor choice. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

01-14-09, 09:45 AM	#9
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,256 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Oh, absolutely! There were back room meetings if you recall. That old saying still rings true today...Keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer..... Hillary will be running in 2012. I hope Obama does well but I sense a fizzle coming our way. She can enter stage left in 2012 and take all. She just needs to keep Bill at bay for now __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

01-14-09, 07:16 AM	#4
TDK1044 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 2,674 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	And as a matter of constitutional law, America is not a Democracy, it's a Republic. It's a sad indictment of our education system that most Americans don't even know that fact. I really don't mind what Hillary Clinton's personal agenda is, as long as we see a significant improvement in our foreign policy over the next four years. The world is already a very fragile place, and with more and more Americans demanding much less dependency on foreign oil, and much more investment in home grown initiatives as we strive for self sufficiency, having a smart and stready hand on the foreign policy rudder is now more important than ever in my view.

01-14-09, 08:36 AM	#6
TDK1044 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 2,674 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	A failure to Understand the nature of our Republic and the Electoral College that supports it leads to naive misconceptions in Europe and the rest of the world.

01-14-09, 10:10 AM	#11
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,197 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	__________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

01-14-09, 10:12 AM	#12
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,624 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Well, Germany is a republic, too. We just do not make such a fuss about it. We leave that to the French - they are still counting. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-14-09, 10:43 AM	#14
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,624 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	No, no kidding. It's the second republic for us - but their fifth for them. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-14-09, 11:12 AM	#15
Kapitan_Phillips Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Swansea Posts: 3,903 Downloads: 204 Uploads: 0	lolfrance __________________ Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into.

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