What would have happened if Germany didn't declare on US after Pearl Harbor?

[BasilY]

I personally think the the US would have declared war on Germany after Pearl for the smallest infractions. What do you think?

I post the question since Japan didn't declare war on the Soviet Union after Barbarossa, Germany is under no obligation to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor.

[Task Force]

The war would have been entirely diffrent if Germany and the US wouldnt have declared war on each other, Germany should have not let japan in to the Axis side of the war. So america wouldnt have declared war, then Britian would have more than likely been taken over since america wouldnt be in the war (for germany atleast) and the war might have lasted alot longer. It is a good thing that america got in the war, If germany would have won.

But what do I know.

[Paul_IronCoffin]

There are some who belive the US 'invited' the attack on Pearl for the simple reason of having an excuse to declare war and having the electorate support such a move. There were reports of Dutch (?) subs detecting the Japanese fleets way before Pearl, and the US administration at the time not responding.

[Task Force]

People believe that the US invented the Pearl Harbor attack. I guess thousands of men dead, ships sunk, airfeilds distroyed, Picific Us turned into a easy target. I guess its not to hard to believe that people would think that, people also think the Nazis didnt have concentration camps ither.

[BasilY]

Originally Posted by Task Force

... So america wouldnt have declared war, then Britian would have more than likely been taken over since america wouldnt be in the war (for germany atleast) ....

Brits are not the only one fighting in Dec, 1941. For better or worse, the Russians had quite a bit to do with the eventual Germany downfall. America helped here as well with Lend-lease even before Dec, 1941. 9 out of 10 german casualty occured in the Eastern Front. Thus between June, 1941 and June 1944, The british isles were a mere side-show to the Titanic struggle in the East, and other theaters such as the mediteranean and North Africa, Even without a second front after Normandy, the Germans were doom. Churchill admitted it as much.

The Western Front did help create a democractic western Europe, In which a new Germany emerge. So Normandy, the bulge, Anzio, were not in vain.

[Sailor Steve]

I voted 'Other', not because I have another idea, but because I don't have any idea at all.

[donut]

Soon after Pearl:hmm:

[BasilY]

Let me toss in another, more unlikely, scenario:

What if Germany declare war on Japan after Pearl Harbor?

And why not?:
- Japan won't attack USSR any time soon, Even Richard Sorge, the soviet spy knew it from German sources in Japan. In fact, Japan was appeasing the Russians so they can deploy their resources against the US.
- No new front open, not a single German soldier will be diverted to face Japan.
- No lost opportunities, there wasn't much the Germans can take from America (yet).
- There isn't much a potential Japanese victory can give Germany, even in the unlikely event of Japan achieving a favorable settlement with the US (Even Japan did not dream off complete victory over the US)

And most importantly:
- Help Nazi sympathizers in US to make their case.
- It makes it very hard for American public opinion at the time to support a war against Germany, a co-belligerent at the very least.

Sure Japan had an pact with Germany at the time, but so did the Soviet Union a mere few months earlier.

[GoldenRivet]

if Germany did not declare war on the United States, the US would have declared war on Germany anyway. IMHO

[bookworm_020]

Even if Germany hadn't declared war on America, there would have been a big increase in the supply of material to England, and with that, the risk of more AMerican ships being sunk by German U-boats.

An intresting idea from BasilY, but I don't think the American government would have taken the bait.

[Graf Paper]

Sooner or later, we'd have gotten around to smashing those weasels. Roosevelt was determined not to leave the British hanging and he was already beginning to sway Congress into declaring war on Germany before Pearl Harbor. So this hypothetical scenario would only alter one fact...Berlin might have become the third city in history to be destroyed by an atomic bomb.

Assuming Hitler conquered Britain (although I truly don't see how it could have been done without terrible losses on both sides) casualties on the American side would have been much higher if they had to liberate Britian and create yet another front in retaking Europe. I think this would have tempted the President to use the new "super-weapon" to shorten the conflict, similar to the reasoning used for nuking Japan.

Who really knows? Questions like these can make for fun discussion but it was inevitable that the Axis would lose the war. They were too outnumbered by the Allies and could never hope to match the Americans in resources and production of war materials.

[downunder]

One flash and your ash.

[predavolk]

Roosevelt was highly sympathetic to the British, and American arms were flowing to the British for cheap, and American volunteers were going over to fight in ever increasing numbers. A declaration of war was imminent.

If the US hadn't gotten involved against Germany, little would have changed. People dramatically overestimate the importance of the US in the fight against Germany. Sure, their industry was important. But the Western front was mostly British and Canadians (3 of 5 Normandy beaches). And the Western front was, as someone rightly pointed out, a mere side-show to the epic struggle against the USSR. Hitler was doomed when he failed to knock out the Soviets in the first round of 1941. Despite Stalin's whining and complaining, US and British aid was most certainly not required for the Soviets to demolish the Germans. Their factories were ridiculously out of German reach, their manpower was colossal, and they were about to unleash the most important weapon of the war- the T-34. Bombing the Reich helped speed things up a little, as did invading from the West. But the Soviets were already crushing the Germans handily before the Allies invaded.

I'm often amazed, at least briefly, about how pro-American most accounts of WW2 are. Absolutely, the US was the chief architect of victory in the Pacific. But their contributions to the war against Germany were about as important as the contributions of Britain and her allies against Japan. Japan was doomed when it attacked the US, Germany was doomed when it attacked the Soviet Union and failed to knock out Stalin in year 1. The inevitable battles of attrition that followed massively favored the US and the USSR.

Britain (and Canada, the forgotten 6th power) were important in first denting the image of Germany as undefeatable, but Hitler could have signed a peace agreement with them (and the US) in 1942 and he still would've lost the war. Badly.

Now if Japan and Germany had turned on the USSR instead- maybe that would've worked. Germany and the US against Japan and the USSR? Unlikely at that point in the war, and it probably would've ended with the US taking out Japan while the USSR took out Germany.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Task Force

The war would have been entirely diffrent if Germany and the US wouldnt have declared war on each other, Germany should have not let japan in to the Axis side of the war. So america wouldnt have declared war, then Britian would have more than likely been taken over since america wouldnt be in the war (for germany atleast) and the war might have lasted alot longer. It is a good thing that america got in the war, If germany would have won.

But what do I know.

Not very much apparently

The US would have declared war on Germany.

Roosevelt knew that a European continent ruled by Germany would eventually become a threat to the US in trade terms amongst others.

Add to that the close relationship between the US and the UK both in historical and in inhabitants terms.....I honestly don't think Roosevelt had much choice.

Could you imagine the might of Germany should she gain control of the Royal Navy and possessions/resources of the British Empire.

[bert8for3]

I agree there would eventually have been a US declaration of war, but when is the question.

I recently finished reading "The Pearl Harbor Myth", don't recall the author's name off the top. If one subscribes to the theory, Roosevelt had decided long before 12/7/41 that the European situation presented the greater threat and that it was essential to enter the war in the European theatre as a priority, and that preparations had to give recognition to that priority, even if it meant that a likely Pacific theatre was given less in way of resources. The trick was how to enter the war in Europe.

The analysis goes on that Roosevelt embarked on a deliberate programme of provocation on both fronts. If it ended up with Hitler declaring war, so much the better. If it ended up with Japan declaring war, whether attacking first or not, and thereby triggering a declaration of war by Hitler, then that was fine also.

The problem, so to speak, was that Hitler was ignoring the provocations, despite an essentially undeclared state of war. Absent a declaration of war, Roosevelt had to find sufficient cause in some incident or other that would not only justify a declaration of war against Hitler, but one that would also be of sufficient weight to rally popular opinion in the US fully behind him. He was still faced with considerable division of domestic opinion.

When sufficient cause might have arisen, or been perceived as such by Roosevelt, is a matter of speculation. One might imagine that chances are that with US naval forces increasingly engaged in convoy escort duties, a large unit would at some point have been sunk, whether deliberately or otherwise, providing "enough" cause.