Tough laws on illegal aliens seem to be working

[SUBMAN1]

Check this article:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...ghbor0730.html

-S

Latino neighborhood slowly disappearing in central Mesa


Family by family, business by business, a central Mesa neighborhood is vanishing.


Already struggling with blight, the Reed Park area near Gilbert and Broadway roads is taking another hit as undocumented immigrants leave the neighborhood, pressured by the state's employer-sanctions law, stricter immigration enforcement and a sagging economy....

[Frame57]

It aint workin here in Kalifornia, that is for damn sure!

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Frame57

It aint workin here in Kalifornia, that is for damn sure!

Last I checked, you need the laws first! not ones that cater to them and give them special privilages!

In WA for example, its easy to go to the University of Washington if you are an illegal alien. The state even pays your way. Try being white, hard working, have a 3.9 GPA and a good upstanding citizen and guess what? You're screwed! They come first, you second for any opening.

-S

[DeepIron]

"If every undocumented resident was removed in Mesa, it would take about 50 percent of my business," he said.

Geez... if you build your business on a clientele that runs and hides every time an ICE vehicle shows up, the bottom will fall out eventually.

And so it has...

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

Geez... if you build your business on a clientele that runs and hides every time an ICE vehicle shows up, the bottom will fall out eventually.

And so it has...

Old adage - no matter what you do, someone will not be happy. This leads in to - You can't please them all!

-S

[UnderseaLcpl]

I am inclined to believe that the economic situation is more likely for their migration rather than the laws.

Personally I am sad to see them go. I like Mexicans and they provide economic benefit to the country. Too bad liberal welfare policies essentially cancel out that benefit. I wish Mexicans, or anyone, for that matter, could come here to enjoy higher wages and hope for their future, I just don't support giving them one cent of taxpayer money until they go through the proper porcess of becoming citizens. (And that doesn't mean coming here and having a baby)

On the subject of California, well what can I say? A bastion of liberalism. Also has gone bankrupt and is horrendously expensive to live in. Despite it's glut of rich people who care so much about the poor, there are still people in poverty, and those rich people are still, curiously, fabulously wealthy.
If there has ever been a more clear cut example, so clearly juxtapositioned with more conservative areas (say, Texas), that is an infallible argument against leftist policy, this state is it.
California is probably the best argument ever against liberalism, and yet liberals simply shrug it off. It's like talking to a brick. A brick that wants you to pay for everything.
Of course, I am talking about economic liberalism here. As far as their values are concerned I could care less. Want gay marriage? Fine. Allow gays to ordain themselves as living gods for all I care, as long as they don't get tax breaks and aren't permitted guardianship of children (I'm still not totally sure about that one, links to studies about the effects of having gay parents on children or related information would be appreciated) I could not care less. Social conservative? Feel free to approach them and try to convert them. I can tell you right now that statistically speaking, it won't work, but as long as you leave them alone when they invariably ask you to, I have no problems with it. So they go to hell , what should a Christian care if they tried, right? An oft-cited Bible reference is the story of Sodom and Gommorah (sp?) Lot was a righteous person, he made no effort that I can recall to convert the populace ( may be wrong, but even if he did doesn't change a thing) God destroyed the cities with fire and brimstone but Lot and everyone in his family but his wife were saved. So by the same token that I would ask liberals not to vote for feel-good economic policies, I would also ask social conservatives not to vote for feel-good moral policies.


Most perturbatory, I seem to have totally derailed the thread, but I maintain that the spirit of it remains the same given the diviseivness of liberals and conservatives over immigration issues and the complete inability of Libertarians like myself to understand what is causing all the fuss. I don't think subman will take exception though, he thrives in discord like I do (right, ol' buddy ol'pal?)

[jumpy]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

Geez... if you build your business on a clientele that runs and hides every time an ICE vehicle shows up, the bottom will fall out eventually.

And so it has...

I think that's a little unfair, considering the figures involved - I suspect because of the area the guy has his shop, he has no real choice but to sell to those 'undesirables' or face loosing 50% of his business or closing down. It's only good business sense to orientate your products/business to the community around you; after all, for example, you wouldn't target upmarket goods and shopping in a down and out area, now would you? Or sell polish goods in a chinese community area - It'd just be dumb.

This seems obvious to me. Blaming the shopkeeper for running his business in tune with the local community, basically saying 'serves you right for trading with those damn illegals' is not very progressive thinking. What other choice (apart from shutting up shop for good) does a trader have?

[Frame57]

There is no "undesirable immigrant" if they come here LEGALLY! Pay their taxes like the rest of us.

[FIREWALL]

When itcomes to Politicians make policy...

It's like letting the NUTS run the MADHOUSE.

[Frame57]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

When itcomes to Politicians make policy...

It's like letting the NUTS run the MADHOUSE.

Or the Rats running the Cheese factory!"

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

When itcomes to Politicians make policy...

It's like letting the NUTS run the MADHOUSE.

Well who else should make policy then? :hmm:

[Jimbuna]

Give the immigrants a try.

It didn't work here in the UK...who knows what might happen at your end though

[Frame57]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Well who else should make policy then? :hmm:

All Policies should be subject to popular vote.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Frame57

All Policies should be subject to popular vote.

Be careful what you ask for. You might want to read Alexis de Tocqueville's writings "Democracy in America" and what he calls Tyranny of the Majority.

Take a moment to imagine how dumb the average American is concerning government and policy. Then consider that almost 1/2 of the population is not that smart.

A popular vote can be a dangerous thing if the populace is uneducated about issues affecting policy.

Take a contemporary issue: Off shore Oil drilling

According to some polls the majority of the people want off shore drilling. But how many of these citizens really understand the oil industry, economy, and how one affects the other? I don't think that too many of the citizens who are in favour of off shore oil drilling have the slightest clue about the industry and what is involved in starting up a new rig.

As for economy, most people have a hard time balancing their check book.

You mention post Keynesianism or Thermoeconomics to the average American citizen and you will get the "glazed doughnut" look before they run away.

So why would I even care if a majority of uneducated, inexperienced, unaccountable people want off shore oil drilling?

I want to know what engineers, economists, environmentalists, and policy experts have to say about off shore oil drilling. There is a reason we have specialists. They know more about some stuff than the masses.

There is a reason why there are so few democracies in the world and how many representative governments flourish.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Take a moment to imagine how dumb the average American is concerning government and policy.

Including many of our representatives.

Originally Posted by Platapus

Then consider that almost 1/2 of the population is not that smart.

And the other half is retarded.

Originally Posted by Platapus

A popular vote can be a dangerous thing if the populace is uneducated about issues affecting policy.

True, and the vast majority of the populace is educated by the state.

Originally Posted by Platapus

Take a contemporary issue: Off shore Oil drilling

According to some polls the majority of the people want off shore drilling. But how many of these citizens really understand the oil industry, economy, and how one affects the other? I don't think that too many of the citizens who are in favour of off shore oil drilling have the slightest clue about the industry and what is involved in starting up a new rig.

Generally I agree here but why does it matter if citizens know what is involved in setting up a new rig? They don't pay for it (excluding subsidies that shouldn't be there) and unless they invest in it why should they care if it succeeds or fails?

Originally Posted by Platapus

As for economy, most people have a hard time balancing their check book.

And yet, proportionally, very few of them have the debt-to -defecit- to income ratio their government has.

Originally Posted by Platapus

You mention post Keynesianism or Thermoeconomics to the average American citizen and you will get the "glazed doughnut" look before they run away.

Somehow I doubt it is only Americans who get a "glazed doughnut look" when these terms are mentioned. Failure to understand Keynesian economics is a shame whether one disagrees or agrees with JMK's theroies. Failure to understand thermoeconomics is because it is an overly comlicated and obtuse term for "you can't get something for nothing"
An intentional oversimplification but the basic principles are the same.

Originally Posted by Platapus

So why would I even care if a majority of uneducated, inexperienced, unaccountable people want off shore oil drilling?

I want to know what engineers, economists, environmentalists, and policy experts have to say about off shore oil drilling. There is a reason we have specialists. They know more about some stuff than the masses.

There is a reason why there are so few democracies in the world and how many representative governments flourish.

There are democracies? Where? I'm not aware of a single nation in the world in which soveriegnty is directly controlled by the people.

IMHO you are placing too much faith in so-called specialists. Most engineers are probably fairly qualified and understand what establishing a rig entails.

100% of economists have yet to agree on an economic theory that works, just like 100% of the public.

Policy experts, I don't know enough about to posit a valid argument. However, the nature of their trade seems remarkably similar to that of a consultant, and if you need to hire a consultant, you're already doing everything wrong anyway.


Environmentalists...... I agree there is a need for them but many of them seem to be sensationalists and fearmongers. Many of today's "environmental" concerns have been touted before and came to nothing.

Of course, I'm no authority on domestic policy myself. I'm sure every ignorant person in the world shares the tendency to have conviction in one's own beliefs. Maybe I'm one of them.