An American idol in Germany

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...567148,00.html

Obama...

(...) will be in Berlin this Thursday, when Germans will hail him as a magician with the ability to transform a gloomy world into a brighter place. Never before has there been so much excitement in Germany over the visit of a presumed US presidential candidate. Obama may be running for the White House, but judging by the commotion, one would think that he had already advanced two steps further and were the president of the world.

Which is precisely the issue. Obama raises hopes that he will not just change America, but politics as a whole.

Obama is the hope of a Western world filled with concerns. A recession looms as does high inflation sparked by exploding demand for commodities and natural resources. Furthermore, no one has yet come up with a convincing response to global warming. No one knows how to bring peace to the Middle East, Afghanistan or Iraq. And no one has a promising strategy for dealing with Islamist terrorism.

At the same time, the West is searching for its place in an "incomplete world order," as journalist Peter Bender describes the current state of affairs. How strong will China, Russia and India become? How should the West interact with these countries? And is there even such a thing as the "West" anymore?

It is time for leadership. And only one man inspires the kind of confidence that would enable him to assume this leadership: Barack Obama.

Germans, in particular, are pinning their hopes on this man. Whereas just 10 percent favor the Republican candidate John McCain, fully 76 percent consider Barack Obama the better candidate.

(...)

Chancellor Angela Merkel was also a candidate for the global presidency once. But by now it has become clear that she even has trouble leading her coalition government at home. Obama will be visiting a country that lacks leadership.

(...)

In the end, though, despite the weeks of headlines the site search produced, it will be the content of Obama's speech to which political Berlin will pay the closest attention. Already, a divide is forming in Berlin's political circles over how to assess the candidate. Conservatives insist that the differences between Obama and the Republican candidate, Arizona Senator John McCain, are exaggerated. Perhaps the "honeymoon" will last a little longer with Obama, says Karl-Theodor Freiherr zu Guttenberg, a CSU foreign policy expert. But, Guttenberg adds, the "fracture point" will be reached no later than the NATO summit in the spring of 2009, when the new US president, be it Obama or McCain, outlines exactly how he envisions trans-Atlantic cooperation in the future -- and that will include US demands that Germany send more troops to embattled southern Afghanistan.

Most US experts at research institutions share this assessment. They warn of exaggerated expectations. They warn against discounting McCain and the experience he brings to the table. And they warn of Obama's lack of experience, speculating that the presidency could very well turn out to be a rude awakening for the Democratic candidate.

But foreign policy experts in the SPD, the pro-business Free Democratic Party (FDP) and the Green Party refuse to be deterred by such rhetoric. With Obama as president, Germans and Americans could finally "talk about shared values once again," says FDP foreign policy expert Werner Hoyer. Green Party politician and former Environment Minister Jürgen Trittin is hoping for a "true new beginning," and former Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer agrees: "With McCain, one has a pretty good idea of what to expect." Fischer believes that McCain, unlike Obama, would not bring about any significant change as president. For Fischer, Obama could "fail, possibly even in a big way, but he could also turn out to be one of the truly great American presidents." Foreign Minister Steinmeier hopes that the Democratic senator, should he become president, will promote a "new, open foreign policy."

Such are the expectations in Germany, despite the fact that Germans still have an unclear picture of the candidate. Every word he utters about foreign policy is eagerly absorbed and interpreted -- like the keynote address Obama gave in Washington last Tuesday. It was a smart speech, strong on content, and for the first time he sounded more like a president than a presidential candidate. If the words he uttered in a windowless conference room at the Reagan Building in Washington D.C. become reality, the trans-Atlantic relationship faces an exciting and possibly even turbulent time ahead.

(...)

Just how Obama feels about the Europeans becomes clear from chatting with Zbigniew Brzezinski, the national security advisor under former President Jimmy Carter and a current advisor to the Obama campaign. Brzezinski's language is peppered with the kinds of words that will likely be heard more often in the future: partnership, responsibility, sharing burdens. "I think the Europeans have to decide whether they want to be a global power or not," says Brzezinski. Should they decide they do, Brzezinski's message continues, they will be called upon to assume their fair share of the decision-making process, responsibility and the financial burden.

(...)

John Kornblum, the former US ambassador to Germany, has an appealing theory to explain why the relationship between sister nations is so complicated. Today's Americans, says Kornblum, are the descendants of Europeans who couldn't abide life in Europe, and who wanted something more radical and therefore emigrated. For this reason, Kornblum believes, it is wrong to expect similarities. America is, in a sense, an anti-Europe.

The situation is somewhat more complicated in Germany, because the Germans have the Americans to thank for so much: liberation from the Nazis, a functioning democracy and the basis of their prosperity.

Attention to everything American is enormous in Germany. Hardly any other nation in Old Europe is as thoroughly Americanized. The Germans are almost indistinguishable from the Americans when it comes to eating, drinking and watching television, but they never miss an opportunity to reassure themselves of just how superior they are to their relatives across the Atlantic.
Germans, in their own assessment, are not as materialistic as Americans, have more depth and culture, better washing machines and -- it goes without saying -- better cars. When there is a blackout on the American East Coast, it makes headlines on Germany's evening news. Look at those Americans, the Germans are then quick to point out, they want to rule the world and yet they can't even keep the lights on.

In this respect, George W. Bush was a godsend for Germans and their complex inventory of emotions. Never before had they been able to complain so openly about the Americans' hubris and arrogance and then feel so vindicated afterwards. Texan Bush embodies everything the Germans criticize about America: the small-minded and swaggering demeanor of a Southerner.

Obama is far closer to the Germans. In fact, he seems almost European: not some Texas cowboy, but a Harvard graduate from an urban environment, and not a "straight shooter" but a man who emphasizes dialogue and mutual understanding.

But even if Obama replaces Bush, America will still be America. The United States is still the military superpower, and yet the campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan have exposed the limits of its superiority for the entire world to see. The United States is still the world's largest and most important democracy, and yet several countries, especially Russia and China, are doing their best to replace democracy as a forward-looking model of government.

(...)

Steinmeier believes that it is important for the nations of the West to stick together, especially if the rise of emerging economies leads to a realignment of the world map. To this end, Steinmeier warns, the West must take a pragmatic and cautious approach to defining common interests. "The attempt to reshape the West without the rest of the world would leave us with a world without the West."

Steinmeier's predecessor, Joschka Fischer, disagrees. After the Iraq war, he argued for a "reconstruction of the West." According to Kornblum, who shares Fischer's view, Europe and North America form a community of values and are thus natural allies. Germany, says Kornblum, could never achieve the same level of commonality with Russia or China. In fact, Kornblum envisions a partnership so close that relations between countries of the West would not be a matter of foreign policy, but of a "trans-Atlantic domestic policy."

For Germany, it will be tougher to resist American claims for leadership with a president Obama than with a president Mccain. McCain does not enjoy as much disgust, ridicule and antipathy than Bush, but he surely is not any popular over here.

In a reverse view this means that if it is in other nations like in Germany, America may be better off in foreing politics with Obama as president, instead of McCain, for it will be harder for these other nations to reject Obama's demands than Mccain's.

Even if both men as presidents I would expect to have very much the same claims.

[rifleman13]

SUBMAN1's gonna have a field day with this one!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[Frame57]

Europe and in particularly Germany has embraced the Democratic party since JFK. I am not sure if it is that the European's relate to a liberal party more-so than a conservative party. The prudent student of history knows that the Iranian situation we have today is due to Jimmy Carter's regime. The man made way for the current leadership in Iran as we know it today. The American economy started to take a downward spiral because of Bill Clinton's NAFTA agenda. Since JFK there has not been a democratic President that has done anything but damage the American people. It is a disgrace that one of our Seawolf Submarine's bears the name of the Peanut farmer, but that is my opinion only. Ronald Reagan was not liked much by the German's either, yet the American economy was never better during his Presidency. The sales of BMW and Mercedes Benz vehicles were at an all time high in the 80's. The German's cannot thank the peanut farmer for that. It is puzzling though, that the German's seem to denounce certain President's like Reagan and both Bush's, and paint them as "war mongers" of some sort. Yet the German's have an intense history of war mongering themselves in starting both world wars. There is an air of Irony and some hypocracy if this is truly the case.

G.W. is not the best President we have had. Iraq was a mistake because you cannot liberate a people that does not desire it. But at the very least America has not suffered an attack since 911, and I give G.W. credit for that. The House and Senate has a lower popularity rating than does the President amongst American's and it has a democratic majority. This tells me that the people are sick and tired of both parties in general, as well they should be. Both parties are guilty of "burning the candle at both ends." The only viable solution to improve America and foreign relations will be a strong independant party that holds the vision of the American Constitution first and foremost. Then amendments have to be made to limit terms for the Senate and to ensure political corruption has no place in serving the American people. I am a firm advocate of withdrawing troops from Europe and Japan. WW2 has long been over along with the Cold war, so it is high time that America scales down and brings those resources home. The money could be spent it much better ways even from a military standpoint. So as long as our German friends no longer start world wars and keep making great beer and mediocre cars, I say tho them, "Ich bin ein Deutchlander..."

[Schroeder]

Medicore cars compared to what (thinking of Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, [O.K. VW is way to expensive for what you get])?

Besides, Mr Bush jr. has ****ed up your country hasn't he? Your financial situation is a catastrophe and he still spends billions of dollars he doesn't have. His foreign policy can only be described as that of someone who has no idea of diplomacy. The reputation of the US has never been lower than today (or at least I'm not aware of any time when it was lower).

So why the hell should we like him?
What good has he done that should make us like him?
We have been insulted as "old Europe" ,by Cheny, because we didn't want to participate in Iraq, a war that was started without the proof of WMD, without the proof that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and therefore based on lies!
Clinton was at least way more diplomatic and charismatic.
By the way since you are mentioning a certain peanut farmer all the time, what was Bush's profession again? Alcoholic? Unsuccessful Team manager? Deserter?

And maybe you should look up again who started WW I.

Don't take this post wrong, it's not supposed to be a rant, it is just supposed to show the German (or at least my) opinion.
Besides, I'm not sure whether I like Obama at all. But I think it can't get any worse than Bush!

[Lurchi]

I don't think that Reagan and old Bush were seen as warmongers here. Reagan was surely polarizing - same as in the US i would say.

Personally i always liked Reagan: He was the perfect President and leader of the western world in that very dangerous time when it was needed against a highly armed but economically troubled USSR. Although he was consequent in his opinions and actions he also was a great moderator and listener (so described by former german chancellor Kohl). Reagan's pragmatism and social abilities showed up when he met Gorbachev. Reagan will always be positively remembered in Germany for his speech in front of the Brandenburg Gate and is honorary citizen of Berlin.

Old Bush is seen similar. He was Vice President under Reagan and he is well- remembered in Germany as the only western leader who fully supported german Re-Unification right from the start. For this, old Bush is still highly respected here.


*irony on*
Ah starting two world wars is too much honor ... i doubt if Germany started WW1 although anglo-french propaganda seemingly likes to teach this. And WW2 ... hmmm i don't know either, maybe it started in Versailles '18, Spain '36, China '37, Czechoslovakia '39, Finland '39, Poland '39 or eventually with the declaration of war on Germany by Britain and France ...

By the way - germans also drive american crap cars like Ford and GM (<=me) despite little Bush .
*irony off*

[August]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Besides, Mr Bush jr. has ****ed up your country hasn't he? Your financial situation is a catastrophe and he still spends billions of dollars he doesn't have.

Uhm, obviously you are unfamiliar with how our government works. CONGRESS controls the national checkbook, not the President.

So why the hell should we like him?
What good has he done that should make us like him?

You don't, but then again being liked by the Europeans is not part of the US Presidents job description either.

We have been insulted as "old Europe"

You think that's insulting you probably don't want to know what our founding fathers thought of Europe. "Old Europe" is extremely mild by comparison...

Don't take this post wrong, it's not supposed to be a rant, it is just supposed to show the German (or at least my) opinion.
Besides, I'm not sure whether I like Obama at all. But I think it can't get any worse than Bush!

That's nice but if Americans didn't like Merkel would you Germans care all that much?

[Schroeder]

1)
Who has brought your country into this mess that all those billions are necessary? (I know, not only Bush alone, but great help of his buddies like Cheny). If the congress were cutting the money now this would lead to an even bigger mess, so what choice do they have?.

2)
Being liked by us is surely not part of his job, but it makes things easier. Maybe more nations had followed you to Iraq or were willing to offer help in Afghanistan...

3)
Nope, I don't care much whether you like her or not (since I don't like her myself that much).
I just wonder what great deeds Mr. Bush has done to deserve your loyalty.:hmm:

[August]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

1) Who has brought your country into this mess that all those billions are necessary? (I know, not only Bush alone, but great help of his buddies like Cheny). If the congress were cutting the money now this would lead to an even bigger mess, so what choice do they have?.

You're missing the point. Congress were the ones who appropriated the money in the first place so blaming Bush for spending money congress gave him to spend is like blaming the rooster for the dawn. Besides, taking out Saddam was still a good thing in my mind although i understand you Europeans liked doing business with him. Some people like to seize on 9-11 connections but the bottom line is the middle east would be far more unstable than it is with him still in power in Iraq.

2) Being liked by us is surely not part of his job, but it makes things easier. Maybe more nations had followed you to Iraq or were willing to offer help in Afghanistan...

Somehow i think that nations did whatever was in their own best interests, regardless of what Bush said or didn't say.

3) Nope, I don't care much whether you like her or not (since I don't like her myself that much).

That's cool. Perhaps i phrased that wrong. Would you base your vote (for or against) for Merkel on a foreigners opinion, or is that decision something for you and your fellow countrymen to work out?

I just wonder what great deeds Mr. Bush has done to deserve your loyalty.:hmm:

He is the person the nation chose to be our president, that alone deserves our backing, at least until Feb of next year when we toss him out on his ear and vote in a new one. Before you start listing his faults, which we have heard many times over, especially on this board, ask yourself this: Have any more terrorists come into this country, hijacked airliners and flown them into our buildings since 9-11? Give credit where credit is due my friend...

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by rifleman13

SUBMAN1's gonna have a field day with this one!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Yeah, possibly...where is he :hmm:

[mrbeast]

You know I was just waiting for another pointless p*ssing contest between Europe and the US!

[JHuschke]

Germany doesn't like U.S. and neither does half of Europe..what is U.S. thinking? Stupid

[August]

Well I, for one, like the Germans.

[Skybird]

There are plenty of irritations between Germans and Europeans on the one side, and america on the other. These originate from false assumptions about each other, and misperceptions of the other. Ultimate I-want-it-all-demands and beyond that: just shrugging shoulders and turn one's back on the other will not help to solve actual problems, nor will it improve the actual situation and relations. Fact is that both spheres have more in common than what separates them, despite the obvious differences, and that no other block or culture there is in the world that is closer to us than our difficult partners on the other side of the atlantic. We depend on each other, that is true for Europe, and that is true for America as well. I know that America loves to consider itself to be autarc, and independant, but that is an illusion. Times get tough for America without europe's support, and much in the field of foreign politcs even becomes impossible if acting against the europeans. Economics are a global issue today, isolationists in america trying to withdraw from the international scene only would do unrepairable damage to their own econmic survivability. This is not the time during and after the second world war - this is the multiple times more difficult and complex present sixty years after WWII. foreign powers today have the power to crush America financially and economically, if they want that. And Europe is vulnerable to the same powers, and for the same reasons.

The transatlantic partnership is difficult, and irritating, no doubt. It has not become more comfortable, but more problematic since 1989. Today there are global challenges and risks and problems, that nobody can solve all by himself alone. that makes cooperation a penultimate priority. and this has to be relearned again - on both sides of the Atlantic.

I am realist. Of course I see that in reality the trend since one and a half decade works opposite, and that there is a huge difference between what I say is needed to be acchieved, and what is actually happening. This does not mean that what I say about vital priorities is wrong. It only means that the situation is worstening due to these priorities being ignored.

the world is a chessboard. economically, europe and america are rivals. Politically, we must not become close friends anyhow. Becoming partners again and both knowing (and by that: trusting in) what reasonable self-interest the other has in this partnership, could prove to be far more enduring.

And more realistic and less dreaming as well.

[Frame57]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Medicore cars compared to what (thinking of Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, [O.K. VW is way to expensive for what you get])?

Besides, Mr Bush jr. has ****ed up your country hasn't he? Your financial situation is a catastrophe and he still spends billions of dollars he doesn't have. His foreign policy can only be described as that of someone who has no idea of diplomacy. The reputation of the US has never been lower than today (or at least I'm not aware of any time when it was lower).

So why the hell should we like him?
What good has he done that should make us like him?
We have been insulted as "old Europe" ,by Cheny, because we didn't want to participate in Iraq, a war that was started without the proof of WMD, without the proof that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and therefore based on lies!
Clinton was at least way more diplomatic and charismatic.
By the way since you are mentioning a certain peanut farmer all the time, what was Bush's profession again? Alcoholic? Unsuccessful Team manager? Deserter?

And maybe you should look up again who started WW I.

Don't take this post wrong, it's not supposed to be a rant, it is just supposed to show the German (or at least my) opinion.
Besides, I'm not sure whether I like Obama at all. But I think it can't get any worse than Bush!

Medocre in comparison to a Ferarri or an Aston Martin, I would even say the Corvette for that matter. Anyway, I see that you do embrace the peanut farmer which is great! Plus I love the warmogering German's. Donitz is my hero next to Admiral Rickover. But seriously you are not going to blame WW1 on the Serbs are you? Not a Bush fan here. But on his bad days he outshines the peanut farmer 2 to 1. Me and Homer Simpson love Donutz!

[Frame57]

Our economic problems stemmed from NAFTA. That coupled with a huge burden of illegal aliens that are taxing the taxpayer. Bad business practice by loaning institutions etc... This is not the fault of one, but the fault of many and stands to be corrected. Globalization is cutting the throat of America. The "progressive" mindset of this movement will only further it. A serious wake up call is happening in Washington DC. More people are registering as "Independants" more than ever before and will hopefully continue, because that is the only hope for America in the long run or we become a third world nation. But the World opinion, in my opinion of America is that we are despised when things are OK, and embraced when things like when WW2 happened. The most shameful thing IMO was the civilian bombing of the Serbian people by none other than a democratic President. If there was a treacherous act then it was that! To bomb allies of both World Wars was a disgraceful act. I suppose because Serbia is not an economic powerhouse. The European union did nothing in protest to this. If the Muslims were to inhabit let's say Bavaria and the decided it was theirs and tried to claim independance, I wonder how the German people would react? It is easy to be an arm chair quarter back in discussing world affairs, but when the reality strikes things change very quickly. May the words of the great sage 'Rodney King' prevail, "Can't we just all get along?"