Why brag about manual targetting?

Fenris_Wolf · 01-02-08, 10:26 AM

Just curious to find out. As I have seen, many people play at full realism except manual targetting, and to me atleast that's understandable.

I don't use manual targetting because it takes a lot of time when done each and every time and it asks me to churn my few working brain cells with very simple yet highly repetitive and boring geometry and newton's laws of motion numericals. It's the stuff taught in schools, nothing extraordinary.

And doing all that is not bad at all. What I find tedious is the requirement to constantly alt+tab out of the game and use some add-on or program to solve the data you have observed from the periscope with (or without) your knowledge of geometry and physics.

Alternatively, some people just fire at extremely close range with fast speed torpedo setting and a bit of experience which also works well, but both these methods are not really something to brag about imho.

If I do use manual targetting, since surveying with and without optical instruments is a part of my professional expertise (as an engineer), I can figure out torpedo solutions on the fly but am I really going to be arsed enough to do that? Nopes! I leave all that stuff on my desk at work, and certainly don't like to use it in a game where I'm engrossed with other stuff like role playing, overall strategies, daring / experiment / exploration / gloating over my victim's misfortune.

Sorry but in my book, a game is for entertainment!

So is there some aspect of it that I've overlooked?

01-02-08, 10:47 AM

Actually, the game itself does the computations using the TDC. Range is calculated by selecting the correct ship then adjusting the stadiometer (?) lines to bracket the waterline and top of the mast. AoB is either a matter of experience at estimating or can be figured by marking the ship's course over time. And speed is also automatically (although not always terribly accurately) calculated by locking the periscope/UZO onto the ship then selecting speed then clicking the stopwatch on the notepad. Ther should be no reason to leave the SHIII game window to perform any of the calculations required for manual targeting.

Unfortunately I'm at work and can't be more detailed but, if no one else helps you before I get home (which I highly doubt; there are lots of helpful people here --smiles--) I'll try and give you more details.

Happy hunting!

Wilcke · 01-02-08, 11:13 AM

... I whole heartedly agree with you....SH3 is scaleable for all tastes and skill levels. I thoroughly enjoy it!

TomcatMVD · 01-02-08, 12:11 PM

When it comes to use manual targeting, the only thing you calculate by your own is the AoB, because the range is given by the system when you tell it where the top and where the bottom of the target are, and the speed calculation is just a matter of looking at the target for more than 10 seconds.
Someone said that this is the way it was done in reality, the Kaleun would take those measures and forward that info to the WO for him to enter that into the TDC, which would, on its own, actaully "calculate" the solution.
I find it a lot more rewarding to take those measures myself and score a hit on a ship, but it's totally understandable that there's people who does not like or does not think that doing it that way is either enjoyable or nice. And that's the cool thing about these sort of sims... they can be played at any level, by any user, from the most arcade-player to the hardcore die-hard simmer.

Sailor Steve · 01-02-08, 12:20 PM

Well, in reality the Weapons Officer would take the information from the captain and do the calculations. Unfortunately the WO in the game is perfect, does calculations instantly, never makes mistakes and can identify the target when to my eyes it's still not much more than a blur in the distance. It would be much better if he couldn't make a speed judgement until at least two separate sightings had been taken, and his guess should improve with more 'peeks'.

It's good that the game can be played in many ways. I agree that doing it yourself is something to strive for, but it's not the be-all end-all that some seem to make it. I will never pause the game to use the whiz-wheel or make calculations; that shoud be done the way they did it - in real time.

GoldenRivet · 01-02-08, 01:36 PM

you dont have to alt tab out.

Speed = Distance/Time

take the distance the target displaced, and divide by the time it took for the target to cover that distance, you now have your speed.

but in SH3 you have to worry about the conversion of speed in KMph to Knots. which takes a little longer.

What i have done, is plot solutions on paper in my full real campaign:

just make calculations before hand and create a chart as i have done...

1 minute observation chart

distance / speed

100 meters = 3kts
150 meters = 5 kts
200 meters = 6 kts
250 meters = 8 kts
300 meters = 10 kts
350 meters = 11 kts
400 meters = 13 kts
450 meters = 15 kts
500 meters = 16 kts
550 meters = 18 kts
600 meters = 20 kts
(etc. up to 30 knots)

repeat for 2 minute observation up and if you like 3:15 observation, print the chart and play SH3... now, whenever you are plotting the solution, you kow that when the ship covered X distance... the approx speed is XX kts.

---

on the other hand you are partly correct, a game is for entertainment... but what you are dealing with is a "simulation" which in some people's book is played for realism, challenge, historical accuracy and educational purposes. if you went out on a patrol and sank 150K tons without manual targeting you really didnt do anything but click a red button :hmm: - true you may have had some close calls and done a great job in the stealth department, but the PC did all the real work... but if you accomplish the same feat with manual targeting... you worked for and earned every ton.

Edit: on sailor steves comment - i cant stand the perfection and accuracy of the weapons officer, in my non -full realism campaigns i have adopted the following policy... when i tell the WO to plot a solution, i start the clock, and i run the time for 3 minutes. once the 3 minutes is up i have him plot another one (for the most recent data) and then i shoot. this simulates the fact that it takes the weapons officer a couple of minutes to gather target data and enter it into the TDC etc.

jmr · 01-02-08, 01:41 PM

As far as alt-tab is concerned you can run the game in a window if you so choose.

Like Wilcke said, the difficulty options are there to suit your play style and I too detest the manual versus auto targeting pissing matches. You see the same drama in the combat flight sim forums as well. There's no need to knock another's difficulty settings.

What does irk me are those who brag about tonnage using auto targeting options. It's a bit like bragging about doing stunts on your BMX bike as a kid to your buddies but you conveniently leave out the part about the attached training wheels.

01-02-08, 10:26 AM	#1
Fenris_Wolf Sparky Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 155 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Why brag about manual targetting? Just curious to find out. As I have seen, many people play at full realism except manual targetting, and to me atleast that's understandable. I don't use manual targetting because it takes a lot of time when done each and every time and it asks me to churn my few working brain cells with very simple yet highly repetitive and boring geometry and newton's laws of motion numericals. It's the stuff taught in schools, nothing extraordinary. And doing all that is not bad at all. What I find tedious is the requirement to constantly alt+tab out of the game and use some add-on or program to solve the data you have observed from the periscope with (or without) your knowledge of geometry and physics. Alternatively, some people just fire at extremely close range with fast speed torpedo setting and a bit of experience which also works well, but both these methods are not really something to brag about imho. If I do use manual targetting, since surveying with and without optical instruments is a part of my professional expertise (as an engineer), I can figure out torpedo solutions on the fly but am I really going to be arsed enough to do that? Nopes! I leave all that stuff on my desk at work, and certainly don't like to use it in a game where I'm engrossed with other stuff like role playing, overall strategies, daring / experiment / exploration / gloating over my victim's misfortune. Sorry but in my book, a game is for entertainment! So is there some aspect of it that I've overlooked? __________________ NO HOOCHIE WOOCHIE - NO LIFE!

01-02-08, 11:13 AM	#3
Wilcke The Old Man Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,441 Downloads: 234 Uploads: 0	... I whole heartedly agree with you....SH3 is scaleable for all tastes and skill levels. I thoroughly enjoy it! __________________ Wilcke **For the best in Fleet Boats go to: Submarine Sim Central. http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php Check out: A Brief Introduction to the Pacific Submarine War by Ducimus http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=128185 Operation Monsun plus OMEGU, the #1 ATO Solution for SH4! Signature Art by Gunfighter**

01-02-08, 12:20 PM	#5
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Well, in reality the Weapons Officer would take the information from the captain and do the calculations. Unfortunately the WO in the game is perfect, does calculations instantly, never makes mistakes and can identify the target when to my eyes it's still not much more than a blur in the distance. It would be much better if he couldn't make a speed judgement until at least two separate sightings had been taken, and his guess should improve with more 'peeks'. It's good that the game can be played in many ways. I agree that doing it yourself is something to strive for, but it's not the be-all end-all that some seem to make it. I will never pause the game to use the whiz-wheel or make calculations; that shoud be done the way they did it - in real time. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

01-02-08, 01:36 PM	#6
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	you dont have to alt tab out. Speed = Distance/Time take the distance the target displaced, and divide by the time it took for the target to cover that distance, you now have your speed. but in SH3 you have to worry about the conversion of speed in KMph to Knots. which takes a little longer. What i have done, is plot solutions on paper in my full real campaign: just make calculations before hand and create a chart as i have done... 1 minute observation chart distance / speed 100 meters = 3kts 150 meters = 5 kts 200 meters = 6 kts 250 meters = 8 kts 300 meters = 10 kts 350 meters = 11 kts 400 meters = 13 kts 450 meters = 15 kts 500 meters = 16 kts 550 meters = 18 kts 600 meters = 20 kts (etc. up to 30 knots) repeat for 2 minute observation up and if you like 3:15 observation, print the chart and play SH3... now, whenever you are plotting the solution, you kow that when the ship covered X distance... the approx speed is XX kts. --- on the other hand you are partly correct, a game is for entertainment... but what you are dealing with is a "simulation" which in some people's book is played for realism, challenge, historical accuracy and educational purposes. if you went out on a patrol and sank 150K tons without manual targeting you really didnt do anything but click a red button :hmm: - true you may have had some close calls and done a great job in the stealth department, but the PC did all the real work... but if you accomplish the same feat with manual targeting... you worked for and earned every ton. Edit: on sailor steves comment - i cant stand the perfection and accuracy of the weapons officer, in my non -full realism campaigns i have adopted the following policy... when i tell the WO to plot a solution, i start the clock, and i run the time for 3 minutes. once the 3 minutes is up i have him plot another one (for the most recent data) and then i shoot. this simulates the fact that it takes the weapons officer a couple of minutes to gather target data and enter it into the TDC etc. __________________

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01-02-08, 10:47 AM	#2
Albrecht Von Hesse Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Actually, the game itself does the computations using the TDC. Range is calculated by selecting the correct ship then adjusting the stadiometer (?) lines to bracket the waterline and top of the mast. AoB is either a matter of experience at estimating or can be figured by marking the ship's course over time. And speed is also automatically (although not always terribly accurately) calculated by locking the periscope/UZO onto the ship then selecting speed then clicking the stopwatch on the notepad. Ther should be no reason to leave the SHIII game window to perform any of the calculations required for manual targeting. Unfortunately I'm at work and can't be more detailed but, if no one else helps you before I get home (which I highly doubt; there are lots of helpful people here --smiles--) I'll try and give you more details. Happy hunting!

01-02-08, 12:11 PM	#4
TomcatMVD Weps Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: MVD, UY Posts: 359 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	When it comes to use manual targeting, the only thing you calculate by your own is the AoB, because the range is given by the system when you tell it where the top and where the bottom of the target are, and the speed calculation is just a matter of looking at the target for more than 10 seconds. Someone said that this is the way it was done in reality, the Kaleun would take those measures and forward that info to the WO for him to enter that into the TDC, which would, on its own, actaully "calculate" the solution. I find it a lot more rewarding to take those measures myself and score a hit on a ship, but it's totally understandable that there's people who does not like or does not think that doing it that way is either enjoyable or nice. And that's the cool thing about these sort of sims... they can be played at any level, by any user, from the most arcade-player to the hardcore die-hard simmer.

01-02-08, 01:41 PM	#7
jmr Commander Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 462 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	As far as alt-tab is concerned you can run the game in a window if you so choose. Like Wilcke said, the difficulty options are there to suit your play style and I too detest the manual versus auto targeting pissing matches. You see the same drama in the combat flight sim forums as well. There's no need to knock another's difficulty settings. What does irk me are those who brag about tonnage using auto targeting options. It's a bit like bragging about doing stunts on your BMX bike as a kid to your buddies but you conveniently leave out the part about the attached training wheels.