Are they TRYING to kill the submarine genre?

[jmatt]

Okay, it's a rant.

But I have spent 2 weeks trying to figure this game out. The manual is a joke, we all know that. But do I have to really spend endless hours searching this site to try to figure out how to play this game? Unpaid modders and players have contributed a hundred times more instruction on what to do than Ubisoft has.

In career mode, I get the same missions one after the other. They send me to patrol the Marshall Islands and I go night after night of gameplay without an enemy contact. It's preposterous.

I keep setting radar (which I have) to continuous sweep but every time I check it's in focus mode or switched off, etc, etc.

I'm not a complete noob, I've being playing sub sims since Gato on the 1984 Mac, Silent Service, Red Storm Rising, SH3, 688I, etc but the complete lack of instruction makes me wanna hang it up. Players need action.

I'm sure that old hands have no problem with finding fun and excitement with the game -- but players that don't eat and breathe sub sims should be able to have fun without weeks and weeks of seeking help on the internet.

It's no wonder sub sims have such a tiny following. How can Ubisoft be so short sighted? How can they expect players to go two nights in a row (4 hours per night) without firing a single torpedo?

I'm just about done. There are more entertaining ways of spending my time than endlessly searching for information that should have been in the manual.

[Peto]

1st of all--Welcome to the site!

2nd: No need to rant. One of the reasons subsims have a small followitn is for the reason you pointed out--hours without action. That is a BIG part of the simulation atmosphere though as submarines could go weeks without spotting anything.

3rd: You're absolutely right about the manual--but there isn'y much they could put in there to help you find ships except: Go lay off an enemy port and wait. let the ships come to you--don't try to find them. If you pick a good spot off a major (or minor) port/shipping lane, they will be there.

When you set the radar to sweep--it stays that way until you go to the station again. It just stops sweeping when you go to the station so you have to click the switch to watch it.

My sincere advice: Hang in there!!!! You wouldn't be trying this genre of sim if you weren't interested. The hours eventually pay off--and in a BIG way!!!

I do understand how you feel though. After all--I was new to subsims once.

Also--Beware!!! When the action comes, you may get as hooked as so many of us already are .

[partyboy]

And to think, a lot of us use mods that _decrease_ the amount of contacts.

[Torps]

I hope you are running mods if not then I know why you are upset. Try ROW, then RFB and/or TM.

[maerean_m]

This is a big issue, indeed. The design guys "collide" with the business guys "all time". Some talk about making the game great while some talk about money and costs and risks. You know the saying "no matter what the subject is about, they always end up talking about money". Everybody is doing their best considering the constraints.

I suggest you try the German campaign in the add-on (when is launched), I personally find it very entertaining.

[Reaves]

One of the large problems with a subsim is that it generally isn't an action game. To simulate a WW2 submarine you don't find a contact all the time. Personally I don't have a problem with not finding enemies to sink in campaign mode but I can see how somebody new to the genre would find it difficult. This is why the missions exist. Campaign mode was a request from old fans of previous subsims dating back to microprose.

The best tool you have to find enemies is the trade lane map that either came with your edition of SH4 or is available somewhere around these forums. The gameplay of a subsim involves searching for contacts on sonar and radar, many people actually think the campaign layers offer too many targets. Multiple Yamato battleships is a good example.

My advice is to stick with it. Learn the game and you'll either love it or find it boring.

[Rockin Robbins]

Are you using time compression (plus and minus keys) to get to and from danger quickly? It sounds like you are not. Using it would make quick action inevitable regardless of what mods you are or are not using. Check that out!

Also, the manual is perfect! I put it under the leg of my desk and it hasn't wobbled again since then.

Fired up Unreal Tournament III (roman numerals show this is a REAL IMPORTANT game, sorta like the Super Bowl (sub parentheses: you mean I actually have to EXPLAIN the Super Bowl?)) It's a typical mexican jumping bean first person shooter, identical to Ratchet and Crank reskinned except that you can't do somersaults while you're jumping up and down to avoid the snipers.

Was watching the promo. These guys are sure proud of their canage festival. What stuck me was a statement of theirs in a tutorial movie (over 20 hours of tutorial movie!): "In development for over two years, Epic won't release a game until it's absolutely ready to go with no problems."

Their business people have decided that exploiting the kiddies for their pocket change, as easy as it is to do, is just plain wrong! And they know that a relatively flawless game with great manual and 20 hours of tutorial will make them much more money than a quickly released inferior product. This thing plays like a console game (in the good sense of the word)! Maybe that is why the PC part of the game spectrum is so low: a lack of committment to good customer relations, plus the "we can fix it later" mindset.

But the Internet is forever. Every one of those "SH4 is crap" reviews will float around the Internet like land mines forever, blowing up sales of what became a great product. Maerean_m the business guys shot themselves in the back on this one. They saw a million dollars on the floor, said "No thanks" and picked up a penny. The true tragedy of that is that you devs would make about the same regardless of what the suits decided. They hurt themselves, but since they can't count money not earned, they think they did great and you were wrong.

So I, who hate mexican jumping bean games, took a look at one and was left with an impression of, "That is just unimaginably incredible quality!" I still don't care for the game itself.:rotfl:

[mrbeast]

The problem with subsims and sims in general, to an extent, is that publishers are nervous about the out lay of cash to develop the game because they are unsure whether they will be able to recoup the costs back from sales. Basically they get cold feet. This goes round in a visious circle something like this:

Its not worth spending the time/money on sim X because they don't sell well enough/make enough money..........so sim X ends up being sub-standard (think of SH2!)..........because the sim is poor it doesn't sell well..............therefore the publishers suspitions are confirmed and we go back to the beginning!

[TDK1044]

Originally Posted by maerean_m

This is a big issue, indeed. The design guys "collide" with the business guys "all time". Some talk about making the game great while some talk about money and costs and risks. You know the saying "no matter what the subject is about, they always end up talking about money". Everybody is doing their best considering the constraints.

I suggest you try the German campaign in the add-on (when is launched), I personally find it very entertaining.

In addition to Mihai's points, I would also add that this is a sim and not a 'shoot em up'. This game tends to attract an older demographic who are interested in seeing a good balance of historical accuracy as well as having fun sinking ships.

The Devs have been very responsive to the more intelligent points raised in this Forum, and a combination of their patches and superb modding have made Silent Hunter 4 an excellent playing experience in my judgement.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by mrbeast

Its not worth spending the time/money on sim X because they don't sell well enough/make enough money..........so sim X ends up being sub-standard (think of SH2!)..........because the sim is poor it doesn't sell well..............therefore the publishers suspitions are confirmed and we go back to the beginning!

But at what point is that nothing more than a mongolian circle...... let me put that another way. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy. Let's see, where do I start? Doesn't matter!

The time and money isn't spent, so the first reviews (which live forever, killing profits for many years) say the game is fatally flawed, so the game doesn not sell well, so the publishers conclude that sims do not sell well, so the next game they rinse and repeat.

Mexican jumping bean games aren't so popular because they are so good! They aren't popular because they were the first of their limited genre out and crowded out future competition. They aren't popular because there is much (or anything!) to differentiate the different games from each other. You can jump right off Renegade to Ratchet and Clank to Unreal Tournament III and be an instant expert they are so similar. They succeed because of their parent business people's committment to quality. Their manuals are meticulous. They have incredible overkill:rotfl: tutorials. They work flawlessly, right out of the box. Their sales are propelled by the first reviews, which continue to sell that game for years. What a contrast!

We fail because we fail is not a very good mission statement. But they seem to execute it flawlessly. Personally I don't care. Eventually the kinks are worked out and we're left with a wonderful product. I trust Ubi to make it work because they have a track record of doing that. But most people, especially young people know better initial quality is possible and expect it. They don't have our perseverence to stick with a flawed product until the kinks are worked out. That's why they drive Hondas and Toyotas.

[jmatt]

Lots of good responses, thank you. As I stated I'm not new to the genre and I like sub sims because I'm too old (43) to do frantic games, it seems. I got MoH Airborne when it came out and I hate feeling like I'm not moving fast enough to keep up with the action. Gimme turn based strategy games any day.

Now, what's this about a sealane map? None came with my copy. In fact, in my original post I wanted to say something about how your mission briefing should at least indicate nearby sealanes. Can someone point me to a copy on this forum? A search truned up nothing but this post.

Okay, so whose bright idea was it to have the radar change to focus mode any time I switch to that console? I've been assuming that it just wasn't on.

Also, yes, I am using time compression. No mods though.

But back to the manual. Locating contacts requires the use of radar and sonar. Ubisoft dedicated just one single page of the manual for both consoles, and that page is nothing more than a run down of the button names! It's ridiculous! How do they expect new players (or rusty ones like me) to derive any satisfaction from the game before simply giving up?

[Reaves]

I'll have a look for the map for you. I purchased the collectors edition and I don't think it was put in the normal edition box.


-Silly publishers


brb!

[Reaves]

Ok I had no luck finding one but I know somebody posted it awhile ago.


I did however find a mod that contains it, search for the pull down map.

Alternatively I downloaded that mod and found a photo of the map, although it is hard to read in this format.




You can see the trade lanes marked, I suggest finding a more readable version but hopefully someone else can post the link.

Hope this helps a little.

[jmatt]

Thank you Reaves. The support on this forum is amazing.

[rrmelend]

Here's a link to the map that came with the game. My version did not come with one either. http://www.replacementdocs.com/download.php?view.4902 Just download it onto your computer and open it up whenever your playing. I've also printed it out onto several pieces of paper so I don't have to Alt-Tab out of the game to look at it. Enjoy.