destroyer depth charge #'s

[fgsr1969]

are destroyers limited historically to the number of depth charges they drop or not. and if so does anyone know the count of each class. playing 100% realism on trigger maru 1.6.5

[Torplexed]

Good question. I'd like the answer to that one too. :hmm: Probably depends on whether you're playing stock or mod.

[leovampire]

It set's better limit's to the number of depth charges the DD's and sub chasers have and the interval's between drop's.

here is the link.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=123307

[Peto]

I know in SH3 they were not historical. And I expect the same to be true for SH4. However--each Kgun or DC rack had a set number of charges assigned. When they were gone, the escort cold do little but loiter.

The way they drop charges in-game, I believe it would actually be bad if they were limited to historical counts. the reason I say this is because the computer doesn't keep count as well as a human did--taking into account factors of time-on-contact and how long it can pursue. I always try to keep in mind that (again) "historically" escorts didn't dump them as fast as they do in the sim(s). A well executed dc attack might mean a escort taking up to an hour to set up for it's next run. While that might be interesting for some realism buffs (myself included) most paople would be frustrated and bored to tears by a realistic depth charge pursuit.

OK--so I ambled a bit :hmm:--considering early in the war, a standard dc loadout for a DD was about 36 dc's (correct me if I'm wrong please ) the "in-game" count is significantly higher.

Cheers!!!!

[Ducimus]

I honestly don't know how many DC's tin cans carry by default,but im pretty sure its way, and well beyond what was historically accurate. TM does not touch this. I left this alone for one reason, its my beleif that a destroyer should *ALWAYS* be capable of sinking you regardless if your submerged or surfaced.

In my mind, If he runs out of depth charges, he ceases to be a threat to be scared of, and becomes an annoyance. My main issue with using the historical amount stored in a DD, is that the AI will run out of DC's too fast, and make himself a non threat too quickly.

[captiandon]

Real Fleet boat has them set at the historical number. However Most DD's in my game waste half of them by dropping then slowing down enough that when one goes off it blows the rest off his fan tail. I have a screen shot of one doing just that.

[SteamWake]

Yes there is a finite limit as to how many cans a particular boat can carry.

That number is exactly "More than enough" :p

[Roger Dodger]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I honestly don't know how many DC's tin cans carry by default,but im pretty sure its way, and well beyond what was historically accurate. TM does not touch this. I left this alone for one reason, its my beleif that a destroyer should *ALWAYS* be capable of sinking you regardless if your submerged or surfaced.

In my mind, If he runs out of depth charges, he ceases to be a threat to be scared of, and becomes an annoyance. My main issue with using the historical amount stored in a DD, is that the AI will run out of DC's too fast, and make himself a non threat too quickly.

'Fraid I'll have to disagree with you on this one Ducimus. DDs, DEs, SubChasers and other ASW ships had definate limits on the number of DCs they could carry, and the number of passes they could make. Just as we are limited to 24 torpedoes (Gato + class), the Japs should be limited to their historic loadout too.

DCs should also be limited to their 'set' depth. The Japs were real good at setting their DCs shallow, and I really object to getting hit with a DC at 400' depth. I don't even think a DC could be set for that extreme depth. Their ASW techniques were'nt the best either as they would tend to drop their DCs where they thought the sub 'should' be if they didn't have a good contact.

However, if they had a good ping on you but were out of DCs, there's nothing in the book telling them they had to break contact. They could (and did) hang around and maintain contact until help arrived. The DD USS Buckley rammed and sank a U-Boat early in the war. I don't remember why the U-Boat was on the surface. The Japs have rammed me a couple of times, so they're still dangerous even when out of Depth Charges.

Refs: 'The Enemy Below' : U-Boat captain states how many DCs/passes that class of DD has according to his ID Book (SH4 game ID Book does not state armament)

'Silent Running' by James Calvert discusses Japanese ASW and habit of dropping their DCs where they thought the sub was, while he slunk away deep and silent.

'The Cain Mutiny' shows no room on the fantail for DCs on a MineSweeper amonst all the minesweeping gear. Were the Japs using MineSweepers as big SubChasers? I hate MineSweepers!

[Ducimus]

When modding something, I look at two things from a design standpoint.

1.) Historical accuracy
2.) Gameplay value, or how the item in question intergates intself into the game.

More often then not, a compromise between the two has to be reached. One can be "blinded" by what was historically accurate. This is always a point of contention with many people, and how far one compromises, is always a subject of debate.

An example is the AI. I have it set to be a bit harder then what it was historically. BUT, it does makes the player behave more realistically, when they otherwise did not. Unfortunatly DC's are intertwined with the AI, and a tin can without teeth, (IE, out of DC's), creates large gaping hole in paradigm of encouraging the player to behave more realisticaly.

That, and i honestly beleive, a tin can that is not a threat, is boring, and may as well be removed from play. I wouldn't be opposed to lowering the amount of DC's to their historical value if their "Rate of fire" could be lowered so the AI doesnt run out so fast.

[Peto]

Agreed. I would love to see a "prolonged attack" option where the escorts spread out and ran patterns to relocate a lost contact instead of dumping all their ordinance at the same spot I was 30 minutes ago. The issue is that this type of thing is hard-coded so not really accessible for modding. An instance of when the Arificial Intelligence isn't intelligent at all.

Not complaining. I still find the sim very satisfying. And most people would probably not enjoy evading escorts for 6 hours. Personally--that is one of my favorie aspects of the game--getting away.

[Roger Dodger]

By Ducimus: "That, and i honestly beleive, a tin can that is not a threat, is boring, and may as well be removed from play. I wouldn't be opposed to lowering the amount of DC's to their historical value if their "Rate of fire" could be lowered so the AI doesnt run out so fast."

A tin can is a threat as long as it maintains contact, whether charging in with DCs or just hanging around completly empty. I've been kept down long enough to give me serious concerns about the CO2 level. BTW, I was anything but bored. I found the experience quite exhausting. He wasn't dropping DCs, so I knew he was out, but I didn't find that a good enough excuse to pop to the surface and duke it out with my deck gun.

The AI seems to be set to drop 3 or 4 DCs when they have a good ping on me during a run, or just one at a time when they're 'just fishing'. Sometimes, he will go to silent running, all stop, and just sit and wait for me to make the wrong move.

Once, I had to resort to the German Kaptain's method: 'Turn the right way, and I'll give you a pretty present.' It worked, and good thing too - it was my last torpedo!

One thing I have learned: If you go to all stop/silent running even at 450', the Japs have an uncanny ability to locate you. Ya gotta keep moving (slow and quiet).

[rrmelend]

Personally I will have to go with Ducimus on this one. It would be cool to lower the # of DC’s the escorts have to the historical levels but only if you could slow down how often the drop them. For me it is boring having the destroyer up there following me for awhile without having a way to do anything to me. Unlike Rodger Dodger I’ve never been held under for a long amount of time, I think at most a couple hours. I also hate to waste torps on an escort, I’d much rather use them against the freighters and tankers I was sent out to get.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Peto

Agreed. I would love to see a "prolonged attack" option where the escorts spread out and ran patterns to relocate a lost contact instead of dumping all their ordinance at the same spot I was 30 minutes ago. .

Maybe Im imagining things but I see this quite often.

[fgsr1969]

a destroyer that has dropped all its dcs is still a threat as you still need to successfully evade him. why should one destroyer be able to crap on me for 4 hours call for reinforcements and then have 2 or 3 dds crappin on you with no limit to there dcs which has happened. these guys are excellent at detection and come damn close to pinpointing your depth no matter what it is. no matter how many course,depth and speed changes you make they will get you and if they are unlimited then whats the point might as well throw up the white flag as soon as the first one turns for your position. dont get me wrong i love the challenge but if im limited i think they should be to.

[Ducimus]

I think some folks are a little too scared of ashcan's ending their career game; and have become preoccupied with looking for a historical way to lessen that fear so they don't feel bad about nerfing the tin cans ability to blow their butts out of the water!