in response to alot of "used too many torps to sink a boat" threads

SingeDebile · 07-05-07, 10:48 AM

first, this is not to say that sometimes this is can be true (its taking a seemingly un natural number of torp hits to sink a ship), especially if you take into account that tanker ships are never actually full of oil for example.

I think we tend to expect ships to sink too quickly (which is encouraged by the ultra speedy sink animation), that after they get mortally hit with a torp they should sink instantly. If you let a wounded ship float for a while it will often end up sinking all its own. But we dont have time for that, we charge into a convoy and expect to sink them all in one swoop.

Realistically it could take hours for a ship to sink.... so even if it doesnt after the first couple hits then let it sit there for a while... watch it get lower and lower in the water or list more and more... or even just tell yourself you giving the men aboard the option of getting off in time.

bill clarke · 07-05-07, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingeDebile

first, this is not to say that sometimes this is can be true (its taking a seemingly un natural number of torp hits to sink a ship), especially if you take into account that tanker ships are never actually full of oil for example.

I think we tend to expect ships to sink too quickly (which is encouraged by the ultra speedy sink animation), that after they get mortally hit with a torp they should sink instantly. If you let a wounded ship float for a while it will often end up sinking all its own. But we dont have time for that, we charge into a convoy and expect to sink them all in one swoop.

Realistically it could take hours for a ship to sink.... so even if it doesnt after the first couple hits then let it sit there for a while... watch it get lower and lower in the water or list more and more... or even just tell yourself you giving the men aboard the option of getting off in time.

Well after reading some historical accounts of sinkings, some did go down quite quickly, especially the CVL's, that's probably the hardest part of the game to programe, so many variables.
BTW why are the tankers not filled with oil in the game ?

WernerSobe · 07-05-07, 02:02 PM

Indeed sinkings are not realistic. In my opinion small and medium cargo ships take to much. Ive seen a 3000 tons vessel eating 6 torps and keep going. There was not much left from its sidewalls actualy it was just a floating huge hole. And on the other hand battleships and carriers and cruisers are to easy, sometimes with just one torpedo. Thats unrealistic. You cannot kill a battleship like yamato with 4 torpedoes. These ships can take a lot and i mean a lot more, after all they are designed to take torpedoes and keep going.

However this can be modeled and fearly easy. The way the ships take damage is the same as in sh3. And there was a nice mod (NYGM) that made ships actualy flood and sink slowly (sometimes hours) and not just blow up like in stock.

Let me explain. There are two kinds of damage the ship can take in sh4. At first every ship has a certain amount of hit points. Every hit gain some of it. When it has no more hit points it takes critical damage meaning it blows up in big explosion and sinks very fast. The other kind of damage is flooding. When the ship has taken enough water it will sink (slowly) regardless of its hitpoints.

Now in stock SH4 most ships sink from critical (when they have no more hitpoints) actualy you almost never see a ship sinking from flooding. There is no balance between both damage types. Most ships are set at to slow flooding speed. In most cases they lose all hitpoints way earlier they are flooded criticaly.

NYGM Mod back in sh3 times gave all ships much more hitpoints. That caused ships sink from flooding only and took much longer. Im sure it can be modeled for sh4 in same way.

SteamWake · 07-05-07, 02:37 PM

I sank a carrier with one torpedo.

Ive posted about it before so I wont go into details but it happened.

TwistedFemur · 07-06-07, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

I sank a carrier with one torpedo.

Ive posted about it before so I wont go into details but it happened.

IKWYM I sunk 2 shokaku class CV's with 4 torps. doin a photo recon of tokyo bay. Raised periscope and took some shots of the docks , then spun the scope around lookin to see if anybody was lookin at me, thats when
I saw the 2 carriers anchored in the middle of the bay!!

tater · 07-06-07, 04:36 PM

I'v never sunk a CV in SH4 with more than 2 torpedos. One mk14 anywhere near MOT sinks Hiryu and Shokaku every single time for me (no damage mods).

It was said in here before, but the mk13 torpedo dropped from aicraft had ~90% of the warhead of a mk14. Weight was reduced by reducing the range (fuel).

C DuDe · 07-05-07, 02:46 PM

hmmmmf

Ok, this doesnt sound to good.

I remember in a post of SHIII that its best to break the vessel in 2 by having the torp blowup under the vessel instead of trying to punch it full of holes.

I dont know if you can set the torp's to magneto in this game (yes I'm just starting with this game) but if so *going to try this* punching a hole in the side and have a torp or 2 blow up just under the vessel should break the vessel in 2 and therefor should lower the amount of torps needed to sink a vessel.

SteamWake · 07-05-07, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C DuDe

hmmmmf

Ok, this doesnt sound to good.

I remember in a post of SHIII that its best to break the vessel in 2 by having the torp blowup under the vessel instead of trying to punch it full of holes.

I dont know if you can set the torp's to magneto in this game (yes I'm just starting with this game) but if so *going to try this* punching a hole in the side and have a torp or 2 blow up just under the vessel should break the vessel in 2 and therefor should lower the amount of torps needed to sink a vessel.

Magnetic detonators are..... unreliable at this time.

-Pv- · 07-05-07, 09:42 PM

"You cannot kill a battleship like yamato with 4 torpedoes. These ships can take a lot and i mean a lot more, after all they are designed to take torpedoes and keep going."

I've seen a lot of people make this statement but not true. We don't know what it would have taken to sink the Yamato because it was sunk by planes. The same hull converted into an aircraft carrier was sunk with one torp. Six were fired and hit, one penetrated hitting a support beam and forcing the beam through a boiler.

It's rare when I don't sink small-medium ships with one or at most two torps. Skill and technique play an important part as it should in any well made game.

-Pv-

WernerSobe · 07-06-07, 03:09 PM

by the way look here http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=118005

Centred75 · 07-06-07, 08:30 PM

If you watch the history channel show Dogfights and the episode about the Taffy 3 escort group that was attacked by the Japanese navy you will see how a single torpedo launched from (I forget the details) a destroyer escort broke the bow completely off a Japanese Heavy Cruiser. One torp and its done.

Thats not to say one torp can kill a ship. Its possible but it all depends on how you hit it. Sometimes a ship can absorb multiple torps because they hit and explode without doing any real serious damage (hull breaches but thats about it).

Ive saved many torps by just shooting 2 or 3 fish then wait a while to see if the deck is slowly sinking. If so itll go under eventually. I think the ship damage model is quite accurate.

Oh and on a side note, if you use the deck gun and aim for just below the base of the smoke stack you can blow the stack out and have it collapse into the ship. Very funny

And I think it also really reduces the ships speed.

Cheers

nikimcbee · 09-10-07, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centred75

If you watch the history channel show Dogfights and the episode about the Taffy 3 escort group that was attacked by the Japanese navy you will see how a single torpedo launched from (I forget the details) a destroyer escort broke the bow completely off a Japanese Heavy Cruiser. One torp and its done.

Thats not to say one torp can kill a ship. Its possible but it all depends on how you hit it. Sometimes a ship can absorb multiple torps because they hit and explode without doing any real serious damage (hull breaches but thats about it).

Ive saved many torps by just shooting 2 or 3 fish then wait a while to see if the deck is slowly sinking. If so itll go under eventually. I think the ship damage model is quite accurate.

Oh and on a side note, if you use the deck gun and aim for just below the base of the smoke stack you can blow the stack out and have it collapse into the ship. Very funny

And I think it also really reduces the ships speed.

Cheers

you mean this:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119981

seafarer · 09-10-07, 11:32 AM

I remember a history channel show some years back about the war. While I can't remember any of the details, they mentioned an incident where a US sub put no less then 6 torpedoes into a relatively small coaster tramp steamer. She settled, on an even keel, until the decks were nearly awash. But, she did not sink. Upon seeing the crew abondon the completely disabled ship, the sub surfaced and pumped a fair number of deck gun rounds into her from (effectively) point blank range.

Turned out the ship was full of bails of raw rubber. As far as anyone knows, she never sank, and was, in fact, efffectively unsinkable - at least until her cargo could be gotten out of the way somehow. Since she was so full of water, they couldn't even get the raw latex to ignite and burn off. The sub just gave up and went back to patroling.

GerritJ9 · 09-10-07, 03:38 PM

"Java"'s completion was significantly delayed by WW1- much material and equipment had to come from Germany and Germany gave her own needs priority. Financial restrictions didn't help either; the planned third ship of the class, "Celebes" ("Sumatra" being the second), was cancelled due to lack of money.
By the way, none of my sources lists mines as part of "Java"'s armament- and why would she be carrying mines anyway since minelaying was never intended to be one of her duties? I would be very interested in the source for that information.

razark · 09-11-07, 01:27 AM

No one seems to take into account the fact that for true realism, once the war ends, half of the ships and tonnage claimed during the war should be removed from your record anyway.

07-05-07, 10:48 AM	#1
SingeDebile Seaman Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 33 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	in response to alot of "used too many torps to sink a boat" threads first, this is not to say that sometimes this is can be true (its taking a seemingly un natural number of torp hits to sink a ship), especially if you take into account that tanker ships are never actually full of oil for example. I think we tend to expect ships to sink too quickly (which is encouraged by the ultra speedy sink animation), that after they get mortally hit with a torp they should sink instantly. If you let a wounded ship float for a while it will often end up sinking all its own. But we dont have time for that, we charge into a convoy and expect to sink them all in one swoop. Realistically it could take hours for a ship to sink.... so even if it doesnt after the first couple hits then let it sit there for a while... watch it get lower and lower in the water or list more and more... or even just tell yourself you giving the men aboard the option of getting off in time. __________________ animal kingdom phylum

07-05-07, 09:42 PM	#9
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	"You cannot kill a battleship like yamato with 4 torpedoes. These ships can take a lot and i mean a lot more, after all they are designed to take torpedoes and keep going." I've seen a lot of people make this statement but not true. We don't know what it would have taken to sink the Yamato because it was sunk by planes. The same hull converted into an aircraft carrier was sunk with one torp. Six were fired and hit, one penetrated hitting a support beam and forcing the beam through a boiler. It's rare when I don't sink small-medium ships with one or at most two torps. Skill and technique play an important part as it should in any well made game. -Pv- Last edited by -Pv-; 07-05-07 at 10:01 PM.

09-10-07, 03:38 PM	#14
GerritJ9 Sonar Guy Join Date: May 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 389 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 6	"Java"'s completion was significantly delayed by WW1- much material and equipment had to come from Germany and Germany gave her own needs priority. Financial restrictions didn't help either; the planned third ship of the class, "Celebes" ("Sumatra" being the second), was cancelled due to lack of money. By the way, none of my sources lists mines as part of "Java"'s armament- and why would she be carrying mines anyway since minelaying was never intended to be one of her duties? I would be very interested in the source for that information. __________________ Quamvis Patiens Acris My SH3/SH4 mods: http://www.gamefront.com/files/user/GerritJ9

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07-05-07, 02:02 PM	#3
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Indeed sinkings are not realistic. In my opinion small and medium cargo ships take to much. Ive seen a 3000 tons vessel eating 6 torps and keep going. There was not much left from its sidewalls actualy it was just a floating huge hole. And on the other hand battleships and carriers and cruisers are to easy, sometimes with just one torpedo. Thats unrealistic. You cannot kill a battleship like yamato with 4 torpedoes. These ships can take a lot and i mean a lot more, after all they are designed to take torpedoes and keep going. However this can be modeled and fearly easy. The way the ships take damage is the same as in sh3. And there was a nice mod (NYGM) that made ships actualy flood and sink slowly (sometimes hours) and not just blow up like in stock. Let me explain. There are two kinds of damage the ship can take in sh4. At first every ship has a certain amount of hit points. Every hit gain some of it. When it has no more hit points it takes critical damage meaning it blows up in big explosion and sinks very fast. The other kind of damage is flooding. When the ship has taken enough water it will sink (slowly) regardless of its hitpoints. Now in stock SH4 most ships sink from critical (when they have no more hitpoints) actualy you almost never see a ship sinking from flooding. There is no balance between both damage types. Most ships are set at to slow flooding speed. In most cases they lose all hitpoints way earlier they are flooded criticaly. NYGM Mod back in sh3 times gave all ships much more hitpoints. That caused ships sink from flooding only and took much longer. Im sure it can be modeled for sh4 in same way.

07-05-07, 02:37 PM	#4
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I sank a carrier with one torpedo. Ive posted about it before so I wont go into details but it happened.

07-06-07, 04:36 PM	#6
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I'v never sunk a CV in SH4 with more than 2 torpedos. One mk14 anywhere near MOT sinks Hiryu and Shokaku every single time for me (no damage mods). It was said in here before, but the mk13 torpedo dropped from aicraft had ~90% of the warhead of a mk14. Weight was reduced by reducing the range (fuel).

07-05-07, 02:46 PM	#7
C DuDe Ensign Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 229 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	hmmmmf Ok, this doesnt sound to good. I remember in a post of SHIII that its best to break the vessel in 2 by having the torp blowup under the vessel instead of trying to punch it full of holes. I dont know if you can set the torp's to magneto in this game (yes I'm just starting with this game) but if so going to try this punching a hole in the side and have a torp or 2 blow up just under the vessel should break the vessel in 2 and therefor should lower the amount of torps needed to sink a vessel.

07-06-07, 03:09 PM	#10
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	by the way look here http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=118005

07-06-07, 08:30 PM	#11
Centred75 Watch Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 21 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	If you watch the history channel show Dogfights and the episode about the Taffy 3 escort group that was attacked by the Japanese navy you will see how a single torpedo launched from (I forget the details) a destroyer escort broke the bow completely off a Japanese Heavy Cruiser. One torp and its done. Thats not to say one torp can kill a ship. Its possible but it all depends on how you hit it. Sometimes a ship can absorb multiple torps because they hit and explode without doing any real serious damage (hull breaches but thats about it). Ive saved many torps by just shooting 2 or 3 fish then wait a while to see if the deck is slowly sinking. If so itll go under eventually. I think the ship damage model is quite accurate. Oh and on a side note, if you use the deck gun and aim for just below the base of the smoke stack you can blow the stack out and have it collapse into the ship. Very funny And I think it also really reduces the ships speed. Cheers

09-10-07, 11:32 AM	#13
seafarer Commodore Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 622 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I remember a history channel show some years back about the war. While I can't remember any of the details, they mentioned an incident where a US sub put no less then 6 torpedoes into a relatively small coaster tramp steamer. She settled, on an even keel, until the decks were nearly awash. But, she did not sink. Upon seeing the crew abondon the completely disabled ship, the sub surfaced and pumped a fair number of deck gun rounds into her from (effectively) point blank range. Turned out the ship was full of bails of raw rubber. As far as anyone knows, she never sank, and was, in fact, efffectively unsinkable - at least until her cargo could be gotten out of the way somehow. Since she was so full of water, they couldn't even get the raw latex to ignite and burn off. The sub just gave up and went back to patroling.

09-11-07, 01:27 AM	#15
razark Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,731 Downloads: 393 Uploads: 12	No one seems to take into account the fact that for true realism, once the war ends, half of the ships and tonnage claimed during the war should be removed from your record anyway.