Mass Graves Found In Ukraine

[Heibges]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,278110,00.html

It seems, no one was interested or allowed to go digging these up before the collapse of the Soviet Union, by according to the article, mass graves are everywhere in Ukraine.

[CCIP]

I think it is, however, a well-known tragedy. In many ways there's just too many mass graves like this in the Ukraine especially, and not only of Jews.

Personally I think this should serve as a reminder to anyone who thinks a Soviet defeat in WWII may have been a good thing in the long run, or that fighting on the side of the Nazis may have been morally justifyable. :hmm:

[Kapitan]

I dont think you could blame the soviets here, the soviets only aquired the ukrain after WW2 and most of the labour and death camps in the soviet union were in the far eastern regions.

But thats before ive properly red the article.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I think it is, however, a well-known tragedy. In many ways there's just too many mass graves like this in the Ukraine especially, and not only of Jews.

Personally I think this should serve as a reminder to anyone who thinks a Soviet defeat in WWII may have been a good thing in the long run, or that fighting on the side of the Nazis may have been morally justifyable. :hmm:

First off, RIP to the victims.

Theres no difference with a Nazi and Bolsevik massgrave. Both ideologies were criminal. Theres no differece in US, UK, and France siding with USSR, than with Finland siding with Nazi Germany. Both were result of realpolitiks. I remind again of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact . Of the invasion of Poland and Winter War, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War . Whe can live with it just as well as the rest of you can with your history, and that includes the Finnish Jews who fought with honor and merit for our independence.

[Jimbuna]

Well I certainly wouldn't trust Stalin

[jumpy]

Hitler 11-14 million dead / Stalin 15-20 million dead.

Personally I see no real difference between them; both were paranoid tyrants.
But in sheer numbers of his own people who died under his rule, Stalin takes the the lead as most undesirable figure of the 20th century for me.

I still find these numbers hard to comprehend in any reasonably tangible fashion. The mind boggles at such cold inhuman and calculatingly precise events of this kind...

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by jumpy

Hitler 11-14 million dead / Stalin 15-20 million dead.

Personally I see no real difference between them; both were paranoid tyrants.
But in sheer numbers of his own people who died under his rule, Stalin takes the the lead as most undesirable figure of the 20th century for me.

I still find these numbers hard to comprehend in any reasonably tangible fashion. The mind boggles at such cold inhuman and calculatingly precise events of this kind...

I dont see difference with 50 and 5000, its the same, but if we are counting you should count in Lenins time also. He is often portrayed as more civilized that Stalin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin's_Hanging_Order

[Heibges]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

I dont think you could blame the soviets here, the soviets only aquired the ukrain after WW2 and most of the labour and death camps in the soviet union were in the far eastern regions.

But thats before ive properly red the article.

Actually, Ukraine had been part of Russia for 300 years. Depending on your sources, Stalin starved 10 to 20 million Ukrainian peasants to death during the Collective Farming campaign. It was also no picnic in Ukraine during the Russian Civil War.

[CCIP]

There is one crucial difference between Hitler and Stalin: their occupation policies and reasons for suppression. You can say what you like, but Hitler's policy for the Soviet Union was genocidal - and when put into action, resulted in exterminations that we see in these mass graves. Stalin's policy was entirely motivated by politics. In the end he had probably killed more, but he was indiscriminant by nationality and the largest ethnic group under his rule, the Russians, got the worst of his repressions. Likewise, occupied Europe - miserable though it was - survived. If Hitler had his way with Eastern Europe, very few Slavic peoples ever would actually survive and the devastation would've been incomparable. Victory against the USSR would result in many more tens of millions exterminated. Most of them would have been Russians and Ukranians. There are very concrete and specific plans for that. The only reason you can put an "=" sign between Nazi and Bolshevik atrocities is if you value the life of a Russian, Jew or Ukranian at less than that of any other European. In which case I've some conclusions to draw...

Noone denies both were thoroughly and unacceptably evil, but I think one of them was very clearly the greater evil.

[robbo180265]

"Yitzhak Arad, a Holocaust scholar and a former director of the Yad Vashem Holocaust Museum, said his research indicated some 28,000 Jews were gathered in the area from surrounding towns. He said 10,000 of those died at a rate of around 500 people a day".

That paragraph made me go cold.

Who cares who the more evil is, lets just pray that it never happens again.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by robbo180265

Who cares who the more evil is, lets just pray that it never happens again.

Quite agreed. I hate making these arguments myself, though let's face it, I would not be alive today were it not for Soviet resistance to the Nazis and neither, might I chance to assume, would many of you.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by robbo180265

Who cares who the more evil is, lets just pray that it never happens again.

I don't think praying is how we avoid it happening again.

[Heibges]

Originally Posted by robbo180265

"Yitzhak Arad, a Holocaust scholar and a former director of the Yad Vashem Holocaust Museum, said his research indicated some 28,000 Jews were gathered in the area from surrounding towns. He said 10,000 of those died at a rate of around 500 people a day".

That paragraph made me go cold.

Who cares who the more evil is, lets just pray that it never happens again.

I would strongly suggest Raul Hilberg's "The Destruction of the European Jews".

http://yalepress.yale.edu/YupBooks/b...sbn=0300095570

There are some chilling parts regarding design notes from German Engineers working on Gas Vans etc on how to make them more efficient. I remember one said to put a light in the back, because humans will instinctively move towards the light, and you can pack more in.

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

I don't think praying is how we avoid it happening again.

I'ts a damn good start!

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by Heibges

I would strongly suggest Raul Hilberg's "The Destruction of the European Jews".

http://yalepress.yale.edu/YupBooks/b...sbn=0300095570

There are some chilling parts regarding design notes from German Engineers working on Gas Vans etc on how to make them more efficient. I remember one said to put a light in the back, because humans will instinctively move towards the light, and you can pack more in.

In all honesty I don't think I could read it. When I read about Man's inhumanity to itself, it makes me feel ashamed to be human. It's not that I don't want to, but I know that it wouldn't be a good idea - I hope I make sense.