Iraqi's wishes are no argument to leave troops in Iraq

[Skybird]

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...t=250&lb=hmpg1

Still wanting to stay? If I were an America soldier, I would feel pissed from two directions: Washington and Iraq.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...601721_pf.html

"There will be lakes of blood," Kassi said. "Of course we want the Americans to leave, but if they do, it will be a great disaster for us."

"I really don't know what I want. If the Americans leave right now, there is going to be a massacre in Iraq. But if they don't leave, there will be more problems. From my point of view, though, it would be better for them to go out today than tomorrow."

Eh? Still wanting to stay? What's wrong with you? Can't you listen? just killing time, maybe?

[mog]

The (democratically elected) Iraqi government wants US forces to stay. The US is obliged to comply until the Iraqi security forces are competent.

It's as simple as that.

[Onkel Neal]

We'll leave Iraq when Iran is good and ready to be invaded.

[Yahoshua]

Well then, I guess we have to respect the Iraqi wishes......

[Camaero]

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

Well then, I guess we have to respect the Iraqi wishes......

yahoo!

[Yahoshua]

On a more serious note, our time in Iran would be better spent in completely destroying the leadership system and military that is already in place.....let the warlords have it.

When the warlords have taken over, we can hit them again......in about 10 years or so Iraqis will invade Iran for us....no problems at all (for us that is).

[NEON DEON]

"Polling was conducted September 1-4 with a nationwide representative sample of 1,150 Iraqi adults."

So I am supposed to believe this poll is a good representation of what the Iraqi people want.

Why?

Is it because it is based on the opinions of 1,150 Iraqi's?

LIKE OH MY GOD!

LIKE THAT IS LIKE ONE ONE HUNDRETH OF A PERCENT (.01%) OF THE ENTIRE ADULT POPULATION OF IRAQ.





What would really be kewl if they pin mark those 1,150 adult Iraqis who were polled on a map.

I am guessing they would range from the east end of Mosul to the west end.

91 % of Sunni polled want the U.S. to hit the road within the year.

What did the ousted Bath party consist of again?

I would also like to know if that wonderfully representative poll took the time out to make sure that only 35% of the Iraqi adults polled were Sunni.

[Skybird]

Wether a sub group of a given population is representative and allows projections and conclusions about the main population, or not, is not decided by the answer to the question if you subjectively have the impression that it is a huge or small number, but by statistical criterions that can be calculated.

And Mog, probably no one in Iraq has less to say than the government. Sunnis don't like it. Shias don't like it. Kurds don't like it. It is considered to be deeply corrupt and it's organs are infested with insurgent agents and sympathizers. It is comletely impotent. You may rate a government as more important than the people, and put it'S will over the will of the people. That is the definition of totalitarianism. I think the opinion of the people is more important than that of some (corrupt) leaders. That's what is called democracy.

"Until Iraqi security forces are competent." I like the sound of that. Admitted, it has the sound of eternity.

[mog]

Originally Posted by Skybird

And Mog, probably no one in Iraq has less to say than the government. Sunnis don't like it. Shias don't like it. Kurds don't like it. It is considered to be deeply corrupt and it's organs are infested with insurgent agents and sympathizers. It is comletely impotent. You may rate a government as more important than the people, and put it'S will over the will of the people. That is the definition of totalitarianism. I think the opinion of the people is more important than that of some (corrupt) leaders. That's what is called democracy.

A democratically elected government doesn't become totalitarian the minute it makes an unpopular decision. Of course the average Iraqi doesn't like the presence of US troops. They are ashamed by it. However, the fact is that your average Iraqi in the street isn't responsible for running the country. The government is, and they are very much aware that Iraq needs US troops to survive.

Far from totalitarianism, the system by which a government acts on behalf of the people, i.e. representative democracy, is the one employed by every free Western nation. If the Iraqis are so desperate to see US troops leave, then they will vote for candidates who will work toward that end.

[Skybird]

Whatever you say, Mog, whatever you say. the government in Iraq, like Bush, is cooking it's own little supper, and that has not much to do with what they originally have been elected for by their people, or the interests of their nations. This may not be of concern for you, but it is for me.

In the end you must justify your opinion not to me, but to those men and women you waste so willingly over there, all for nothing but a lost cause. You also need to justify yourself to the families of these people, who sometimes haven't seen their fathers or husbands since five years, or had only one short holiday from war in all this time. I find it disgusting when people try to give an impression of sense of duty, obligation, patriotism or honour and send soldiers into wars that have no more mission and cannot win anything good.

This war is not only useless, it has been totally counterproductive from day one on. Exactly the opposite of the mission objectives has been acchieved, and the enemy is not weaker, but stronger than before. History seems to already remember this war as one of the most stupid wars ever been fought.

And while Afghanistan also goes down the drain, some people already start talking about "attacking Iran", as if two major commitements are not already enough. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Reminds me of the sense of realism that Hitler showed when time and again he ruled out the much wiser advise of his generals after he had invaded Russia. We know how it ended - despite the Wehrmacht's superior leadership in the field.

[HunterICX]

Are they stil there?

whats the point?

there will be a civil war, I,m sure of that.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

Are they stil there?

whats the point?

there will be a civil war, I,m sure of that.

There already is, and since quite some time now. I argued already over a year ago that there is civil war.

[mog]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Whatever you say, Mog, whatever you say. the government in Iraq, like Bush, is cooking it's own little supper, and that has not much to do with what they originally have been elected for by their people, or the interests of their nations.

The elections were declared free and fair by international observers. You are claiming that between then and now the government has deteriorated into an oppressive, self-serving tyranny. So, the MPs from the various warring factions have put aside their differences and are now colluding to keep themselves in power? It will take more than unsubstantiated assertions to prove that.

In the end you must justify your opinion not to me, but to those men and women you waste so willingly over there, all for nothing but a lost cause. You also need to justify yourself to the families of these people, who sometimes haven't seen their fathers or husbands since five years, or had only one short holiday from war in all this time. I find it disgusting when people try to give an impression of sense of duty, obligation, patriotism or honour and send soldiers into wars that have no more mission and cannot win anything good.

The feeling is mutual. I'm disgusted that people would actually advocate plunging a country into open civil war that would kill untold thousands or even millions more than the current insurgency. Even if you don't care about innocent Iraqi civilians, how on earth do you think it wise to let Iraq become another terrorist state that would almost certainly back attacks against the West and Israel?

This war is not only useless, it has been totally counterproductive from day one on. Exactly the opposite of the mission objectives has been acchieved, and the enemy is not weaker, but stronger than before. History seems to already remember this war as one of the most stupid wars ever been fought.

It doesn't matter. Withdrawing from Iraq isn't going to turn back time. We are there now, and regardless of whether you supporting the war in the first place, the question is whether things would be better if we left.

[SkvyWvr]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Wether a sub group of a given population is representative and allows projections and conclusions about the main population, or not, is not decided by the answer to the question if you subjectively have the impression that it is a huge or small number, but by statistical criterions that can be calculated.

And Mog, probably no one in Iraq has less to say than the government. Sunnis don't like it. Shias don't like it. Kurds don't like it. It is considered to be deeply corrupt and it's organs are infested with insurgent agents and sympathizers. It is comletely impotent. You may rate a government as more important than the people, and put it'S will over the will of the people. That is the definition of totalitarianism. I think the opinion of the people is more important than that of some (corrupt) leaders. That's what is called democracy.

"Until Iraqi security forces are competent." I like the sound of that. Admitted, it has the sound of eternity.

Projections. Is that like a WAG?

[tycho102]

I'm about ready for us to bail out of Iraq. Kurdistan probably deserves some debate, if they even care to have us there. Turkey can suck it, for all I care -- they were a fair-weather ally during the cold war, because the Russians would've drove there like nothing.

Let the Shi'a annhilate the Sunni, and then Kuwait, Oman, United Arab Emirates, and Saudi Arabia can figure out just what the heck their "options" are. A Shi'a coalition will put some pressure on them.

However, I do think that Al-Sistani isn't going to adhere to the Iranian mullahs to the letter which they would prescribe. And there's ambitious imams like Al-Sadir that will play for any extra power they can get. Iraq would become an absolute blood-bath (hundreds of Sunni killed, every day), and then the Shi'a would be able to start fighting amongst themselves. Just like mafia gangs, if the enemy is too far away, they will revert to infighting.

However, if I was Iran, I would use the opportunity to lay down an "autobahn" across Iraq and into Syria. If the Americans pull out of Iraq, it would be an outstanding opportunity to put in a highway devoted to supplying Hamas and Hizbollah. Right now, the trucks make slow progress across Iraq, taking a week or more to transit. A good road would cut that down to under 2 days, and would be useful for years because once the Americans pull out, there's no one that would bomb it (other than Israel, and they'd catch hell from all the mujahideen in the United Nations).