Chavez is a more inventive thinker.

[Fish]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...157172,00.html

[MadMike]

Quote about the Council on Hemispheric Affairs-


"The Boston Globe describes Birns as a lobbyist and a liberal critic of U.S. policy, [1] and The New York Times says the Council on Hemispheric Affairs is a liberal research group specializing in United States-Latin America relations.[2] The Los Angeles Times describes the COHA as a liberal think tank.[3]"

Record of Human Rights Abuses in Chavez's paradise-

http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=venezu

Yours, Mike

[Immacolata]

And? Are people unable to form their own opinion of what Chavez does? I think the millions who get cheap fuel for their winter heating needs doesn't care if Chavez is called brilliant by a neo-conservative or liberal think tank, do you?

[MadMike]

Brilliant dictator Comrade Chavez also plans to assist Europe's downtrodden masses against imperialist exploitation-

http://www.forbes.com/2005/11/23/cha...acescan07.html

Yours, Mike

[Immacolata]

Wasn't he voted democratically? What makes him a dictator?

[TteFAboB]

If mere democratic formalities prevent the title of dictator, then remove Hitler from the list as he was "voted democratically" and used an instrument of Weimar's constitution to grasp power.

http://www.abn.info.ve/go_news5.php?articulo=60865
http://www.aporrea.org/dameverbo.php?docid=83060
http://www.rnv.gov.ve/noticias/?act=ST&f=2&t=37592

How about a single party, to hold power eternally and use the Judiciary against its only opponent?

[Immacolata]

Why do you link to pages in spanish? Or is that portuguese? It might be instructions on how to homegrow your on marijuana for all I know.

Do not just spam links, make an argument please.

[TteFAboB]

Spanish. I'm not spamming links, I'm posting official sources to back my argument:

How about a single party, to hold power eternally and use the Judiciary against its only opponent?

The first link says Chavez requested his supporters to make a referendum to bring down the only provincial governor who isn't his ally. The second link says Chavez will call a referendum for unlimited re-election in 2010. The third link says Chavez thinks multiple parties create dispersion and division and that there should be only a single party that should also 'direct all popular organizations'.

[Immacolata]

Well I could post links in danish or japanese next time I guess

The topic of the second link I am aware of. But as I understand it he wants to end the Venezuelan equivalent of the 22nd ammendment. It means that there is no limit to the number of times the candidate can run for office. Not the same as appointing himself eternal leader. He would still have to hold elections. He said something earlier about 25 years term. But did he go through with that?

I cannot comment on the other topics as I am unable to find any information on them that I can understand.

[MadMike]

Very well then-

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/07/08/venezu11299.htm
In ordering the trial of four civil society leaders on dubious charges of treason, a Venezuelan court has assented to government persecution of political opponents, Human Rights Watch said today.


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/24/venezu10368.htm
Amendments to Venezuela’s Criminal Code that entered into force last week may stifle press criticism of government authorities and restrict the public’s ability to monitor government actions, Human Rights Watch said today.

Venezuela: Media Law Undercuts Freedom of Expression
A draft law to increase state control of television and radio broadcasting in Venezuela threatens to undermine the media’s freedom of expression, Human Rights Watch said today. Venezuela’s National Assembly, which has been voting article by article on the law, known as the Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television, is expected to approve it today.

Venezuela: Investigate Charges of Abuses Against Protestors
The Venezuelan government should conduct a thorough investigation into allegations that state security forces have beaten and abused detained protestors this week, Human Rights Watch said today. The investigation should also examine the circumstances of killings that occurred during confrontations between protesters and police.

Investigate Killings of Opposition Supporters in Venezuela
The government of Hugo Chávez should carry out a thorough and impartial investigation into the abduction and murder of four opposition supporters whose bodies were found on February 16 and 17, Human Rights Watch said today.

Yours, Mike

[Immacolata]

It seems that Latin america ends up with that kind of government all the time huh? Perhaps the vehement dislike shown by the current US administration has more to do with Chavez acting against their interests. They require stability, no matter the cost. And their kind of stability of course.

I wonder if there will ever emerge a great leader in that area, who doesn't all prone to totalitarianism.

I like your linking style btw. A short description of the content, makes it much easier to see what people are arguing for or against, without having to pore over yards of text to figure out what they mean. Thanks.

[August]

Originally Posted by Immacolata

Perhaps the vehement dislike shown by the current US administration has more to do with Chavez acting against their interests.

Actually the impression i get is that the dislike that is mainly being shown here is by Chavez against the administration rather than the reverse. It's like he is constantly picking a fight with us. Rapid expansion of his military beyond defensive needs, harassment of our diplomats, weekly, sometimes daily, inflammatory rhetoric, deliberate cultivation and alignment with Washingtons enemies, reports of cooperation and conspiracy with terrorist organizations.

One gets the idea that if the US didn't exist he'd be picking a fight with whoever else was big kid on the block.

[TteFAboB]

Welcome to the club. There is the occasional link in German I can hardly crawl through, or the one in Russian completely alien to me, or Dutch.

"Not the same as appointing himself eternal leader". Chavez is alot smarter than that. Why should he do that while he can win referendums? But If he remains in power for 25 years, will he be a dictator then?

The point is not to become obsessed with democratic formalities. Cuba has regional elections. The Soviets had elections. Feudal Japan had elections. The EU votes in a parliament. Mexico under the PRI had elections. Pinochet held elections. The military dictatorships of Brazil and Argentina held elections. This doesn't make any of these governments any less dictatorial, simply because they kept or had more or less democratic formalities. If necessary to go further, many Kings in the past were elected, as was the Holy Roman Emperor.

Democracy is defined more by the guarantee of rights to the minority than by the changes the majority can legitimize. And by the ability of removing politicians from power than by installing or maintaining them.

What is the great legitimizer tool of democracy? The referendum. And that's Chavez favourite instrument. Used twice to install the Bolivarian Constitution, which dissolves the three branches (Executive, Legislative and Judiciary) and for every other policy that would otherwise be considered undemocratic in international eyes.

Of course, all of this granted the elections are and will be democratic indeed. The existance of fraud or interference would be most unfortunate.