Some moral questions by a German...

sordid · 08-17-06, 05:24 AM

First of all - if you find something I write offending, this might be due to my poor command of the English language. So when in doubt, before getting angry, simply ask what I actually meant.
I am a German citizen, born in 1975.
After this disclaimer now for my actual question:
Why do so many people here obviously enjoy taking the role of a German soldier during WWII and what are your feelings towards this rather delicate detail?
Having read this forum for the last few days almost excessively, I am absolutely sure that the vast majority of players here is aware of the German history, at least concerning the Third Reich.
When reading forums that deal with landbased warfare games, you easily get the impression that many people, especially Americans, would absolutely refuse to play as a German soldier. Now this is a pretty hard contrast to the enthusiasm I see in many fellow subcommanders here on this board.
I can imagine a few reasons for this.
Naval units, in opposite to army members, were never going toe to toe with their opponents. Hardly any visible blood, no guts flying around.
The navy was not corrupted by massacres against civilians, opposed to army soldiers.
But on the other hand, they were sinking ships full of civilians and their enormous success especially in the earlier days of the war was a pretty important factor why Hitler was able to maintain power that long and bring his wrath and destruction over the whole continent (and beyond), resulting in over 50,000,000 people dead and another 35,000,000 wounded - not to mention the tragedy of the Holocaust.
Now how do you justify playing as a member of the German navy to yourself?
Do you think the same way I do? In PC games, I personally don't care who is getting killed by whom since it's only a PC game and I am extremely fascinated by mastering the technical and navigational challenges as well as setting up traps for "enemy" escorts.
Or does anybody have a completely different approach towards this?
Well - I'm just curious!
Take care!

Frenssen · 08-17-06, 05:45 AM

To me it`s a game, nothing more. If we follow your thoughts to the extreme we shouldn`t play violent games at all because as civilized people we don`t solve conflicts with violence.

Beery · 08-18-06, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frenssen

To me it`s a game, nothing more. If we follow your thoughts to the extreme we shouldn`t play violent games at all because as civilized people we don`t solve conflicts with violence.

I actually stopped playing violent/war-based games for two years because of my pacifist views. I might have relented if SH3 had come out during that time though. Anyway, I realized that what attracted me was not the violence but the challenge. All games are inherently non-violent. No one gets killed or hurt, and some games - especially simulations like SH3 - can actually imbue the player with a reverence for history and a realization that war is not something to be celebrated but something to be ashamed of.

stabiz · 08-17-06, 05:46 AM

Hi there, sordid!

I dont have any problems with playing as a german in any WW2 games. I dont see the difference between the german and the allied soldier, they both did what they saw as their duty at the time.

Personally I PREFER playing the german side, as they (in my opinion) had the superior tools in pretty much every part of the army. We are after all playing games, not invading countries.

It is such a long time since WW2 now, that I think Germans can stop feeling bad for what happened in the war(s). I dont say that we should forget, but we can move on.

I am Norwegian, so my country was invaded by the Third Reich, but that doesn`t mean that I am not impressed by the technical provess of the German army.

The important point is that in any wargame we play as the soldier - the average man on the battlefield - the scenario would be totally different if there was a game where you played as the commander of a consentration camp. A game like that will never be made, of course.

PS: Your English is far from bad!

Frenssen · 08-17-06, 05:55 AM

Wargames is a way of trying cool military epuipment without the human suffering. With the knowledge we have today I don`t think there many who romanticize war

sordid · 08-17-06, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frenssen

Wargames is a way of trying cool military epuipment without the human suffering.

Great attitude!
Now where the hell did I tow my 688???

Safe-Keeper · 08-17-06, 06:07 AM

For a long time I thought exactly in that way you wrote about: I stayed away from World War II games and definetly never played as one of the Axis powers. I think it might have had to do with 9/11 making the horrors of war and mass death bit more real to me (I lived in Houston at the time), though I don't know. And I'm looking forward to playing as the US in the next game, and I still prefer to play as the "good guys" [for lack of a better way of putting it

] in most reality-based games. I jump straight to the evil Galactic Empire whenever a Star Wars game gets within my reach, though.

Quote:

The important point is that in any wargame we play as the soldier - the average man on the battlefield - the scenario would be totally different if there was a game where you played as the commander of a consentration camp. A game like that will never be made, of course.

Sadly, there are many racist/Nazistic/surpremacist games out there, some of them revolving around death camps. No mainstream ones, though, a fact for which I am exceedingly grateful.

sordid · 08-17-06, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

I jump straight to the evil Galactic Empire whenever a Star Wars game gets within my reach, though.

Aye, same here.
In fantasy games, the nice guys bore me to death - I always prefer to slay them.
But when it's getting historic, I really have problems playing as a German.

Actually weird - I'd rather shoot my virtual grandpa than anybody else.

sordid · 08-17-06, 05:55 AM

Stabiz,

that idea "The important point is that in any wargame we play as the soldier - the average man on the battlefield - the scenario would be totally different if there was a game where you played as the commander of a consentration camp." is very interesting. I never saw it that way.

"A game like that will never be made, of course." - absolutely wrong, mate.
There used to be a game called "KZ Manager" on the C64. Even when putting away the moral aspect, this game was also technically complete crap, yet some sick people were horribly enjoying it.

stabiz · 08-17-06, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sordid

"A game like that will never be made, of course." - absolutely wrong, mate.
There used to be a game called "KZ Manager" on the C64. Even when putting away the moral aspect, this game was also technically complete crap, yet some sick people were horribly enjoying it.

What the hell?

Eichenlaub · 08-17-06, 06:40 AM

Hi there,

Well, where to start?

I play just about all of my sims from the German perspective. I've played that way for about 10-12 years now. Doesn't mean I wouldn't play as an Allied commander at all, I will happily play an American commander in SHIV for instance (Dutch would be better of course).

My first person shooters are usually Allied, but when multiplaying, I let the choice of weapons decide which side I'm on - if I want a tommygun I'll go Allied, if I want a Sturmgewehr, I'll go Axis. I happily mowed down tons of German infantry and armour in MOHAA, Call of Duty and Return to Wolfenstein. Didn't bother me either.

When I first started playing simulations (flight mostly), I generally played from the Allied side. There were very few games around in the late eighties and early nineties that would allow a German perspective anyway, but mostly because during that era I was still walking around with a pair of anti-German glasses.
When I was around 15 years of age, I got inspired to check out why certain things happened the way they did. I wondered why any German would want to fight for Hitler or the Kaiser. Stories about Allied exploits were easy to come by, but finding good stuff on German personnel was a tad more challenging. Eventually I read so much about the actual fighting men (focussing on Luftwaffe and kriegsmarine) of that war, I began to see some answers.

One answer is that not everything is black and white. People fight wars for various reasons and the reasons that are popularized in history aren't always the actual ones. There's a broad spectrum of reasons that explain why people still fought for Hitler. Having acquired that broader scope, I feel I can play a game as a submariner without disrespecting the war casualties.

What appeals to me about air and sea operations, is the un-personal flavour of combat: you generally find yourself shooting at a ship or plane, not a man. This was true in real wars too. Furthermore, sea and air warriors have always been forced to not only deal with the enemy, but also with the elements, which is a futher bond between enemies. It explains why there is more camaraderie between navy and air force personnel of opposing nations than between say, opposing infantrymen.

Then there is the blood attached to a particular service: the Luftwaffe has some but the Kriegsmarine is virtually spotless (in actual sea operations, I don't know how they rated as regular troops).

Don't forget the game aspect: simulations are in the end merely games designed to create a feeling and to entertain. It's entertaining doing something on your pc you could otherwise never have done in real life - or maybe never even wanted to in the first place.

Being the underdog can be attractive. It is interesting to see whether you could change history or whether the underdogs really stood a chance to begin with. Seeing as Germany lost both wars, they must be considered the underdog in simulation games.

Having read of the magnificent performance of the German Jagdflieger and submariners, I always enjoy comparing myself to them in simulation games. It would be unrealistic to have a score of 100+ aerial victories as an American, but about 105 Germans managed to do so. Likewise, no American submariner ever made it to 200,000 tons of shipping. I think that the German soldiers fought a tougher war because they had to keep on fighting until:
1) the war ended
2) they were killed
3) they were too wounded to continue fighting

All in all their odds were bad. As a Brit or American fighting man, you'd have a chance to retire from combat after some time. To the Germans, the term "tour of duty" did not exist. It's unimaginably difficult to survive almost 6 years of combat while any supremacy in numbers and material that may have existed in 1939-41 was gradually dwindling away.

Like someone else said: playing with the better tools is fun too. In all aspects of warfare Germany developed some technology that was very impressive and highly advanced. Think of the Stg.44, the Panther tank, the Type XXI submarine, the Me262, the V2, etc. It's fun to feel superior in your Panzerkampfwagen V when you espy a quartet of M4 Shermans 3 kilometres away... I gloat when I catch a convoy in 1940 with only two escorts while sailing in my fully loaded VIIB. I love it when my heavily armed Fw190 gets down on the deck, just below an IL-2 Sturmovik and blows it to bits without having to fear return fire.
It's just fun. I also enjoyed Silent Service II, destroying half the Japanese fleet, or flying a Spitfire in 1940.

All of the above explains why "fighting for the Germans" can be appealing.

For the record: I accept submarine warfare as a legitimate type of combat and don't buy the "U-boat men were killing helpless civilians on merchants and are thus war criminals" line I get to hear every now and then. You don't have to be in the armed forces to be part of a war machine.

Your question was valid and I don't think you've offended any one here. I hope my long answer can satisfy your curiosity somewhat. I think many people here will agree with at least some if not all of my points.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

StanUK · 08-17-06, 07:08 AM

Hi sordid,

Concerning just SHIII, I knew very little of the German Navy and U-Boats before playing. However after getting hooked it got me interested in the history and I have spent a lot of time reading books and websites about u-boats and the people who commanded and sailed in them. For me, its been a great experience and I have learnt a lot about what the German sailors went through and what they achieved.

Therefore I have no problems with playing the side of the Germans as I feel that the game has allowed me to understand a part of history a little better and prompted me to learn more.

Cheers

Stan.

ps. I am English and your English is very good

pps. Eichenlaub a very good read

VonHelsching · 08-17-06, 07:32 AM

Although I come from a country that (among many others) suffered greatly in WWII, I don´t mind playing a computer game on the Axis side. I wouldn´t even mind if this game had an option for switching between dynamic and non dynamic campaign, and you had a chance to change history.

In the end it´s just a game and most of us are here for the challenge.

In the beginning I had no clue about naval and uboat warfare, but this game made me read history books, saw documantaries and visited websites, something that made me wiser. In how many games can you attribute this thing? My best guess is really not too many.

Silent Hunter III handled the era gameplay-wise excellent: You change sub types, new technology, torpedos, the AI gets harder / has comparable technology / better airforce as time passes by, and eventually the war is lost. The Atlantic is the perfect set up for a challenging game

Dowly · 08-17-06, 07:33 AM

1. It´s the only WWII subsim around (with good graphics and stuff)
2. For me Kriegsmarine and Third Reich are like to separate countries, AFAIK (correct me if I´m wrong) the uboats got orders from BdU, as the land forces got their orders direcly from Hitler.

So, I´m having no problems playing as a german uboat commander. IMO, they were the most honorable section of the whole german army at that time. And before anyone says "Yea, but they killed innocent civilians!", sorry, but that´s war. The commanders didnt go knock the ships doors just to see if it´s full of soldiers or civilians.

And if someone still insists that they are bad because they killed civilians, I point them towards Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Stalin etc.

shegeek72 · 08-18-06, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StanUK

Concerning just SHIII, I knew very little of the German Navy and U-Boats before playing. However after getting hooked it got me interested in the history and I have spent a lot of time reading books and websites about u-boats and the people who commanded and sailed in them. For me, its been a great experience and I have learnt a lot about what the German sailors went through and what they achieved.

I, too, knew next to nothing about U-boats and the German navy until I started playing SH3 and it has spurred study in U-boats. Both COD and SH3 taught me things I didn't know, or had forgotten, about WWII. If they had video games in high school I would've learned more than through the dry text books, and times and dates we were taught!

There was a documentary on PBS last night about D-Day and I found it fascinating about all the technology that had to be developed in just two years, like the Higgins-boat (unfortunately many of them sank when they were launched too far from shore) and the bravery of the two men who snuck onto Omaha beach at night to take sand depth measurements (for the tanks).
--

08-17-06, 05:24 AM	#1
sordid Swabbie Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 14 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Some moral questions by a German... First of all - if you find something I write offending, this might be due to my poor command of the English language. So when in doubt, before getting angry, simply ask what I actually meant. I am a German citizen, born in 1975. After this disclaimer now for my actual question: Why do so many people here obviously enjoy taking the role of a German soldier during WWII and what are your feelings towards this rather delicate detail? Having read this forum for the last few days almost excessively, I am absolutely sure that the vast majority of players here is aware of the German history, at least concerning the Third Reich. When reading forums that deal with landbased warfare games, you easily get the impression that many people, especially Americans, would absolutely refuse to play as a German soldier. Now this is a pretty hard contrast to the enthusiasm I see in many fellow subcommanders here on this board. I can imagine a few reasons for this. Naval units, in opposite to army members, were never going toe to toe with their opponents. Hardly any visible blood, no guts flying around. The navy was not corrupted by massacres against civilians, opposed to army soldiers. But on the other hand, they were sinking ships full of civilians and their enormous success especially in the earlier days of the war was a pretty important factor why Hitler was able to maintain power that long and bring his wrath and destruction over the whole continent (and beyond), resulting in over 50,000,000 people dead and another 35,000,000 wounded - not to mention the tragedy of the Holocaust. Now how do you justify playing as a member of the German navy to yourself? Do you think the same way I do? In PC games, I personally don't care who is getting killed by whom since it's only a PC game and I am extremely fascinated by mastering the technical and navigational challenges as well as setting up traps for "enemy" escorts. Or does anybody have a completely different approach towards this? Well - I'm just curious! Take care!

08-17-06, 05:46 AM	#4
stabiz Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 4,224 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Hi there, sordid! I dont have any problems with playing as a german in any WW2 games. I dont see the difference between the german and the allied soldier, they both did what they saw as their duty at the time. Personally I PREFER playing the german side, as they (in my opinion) had the superior tools in pretty much every part of the army. We are after all playing games, not invading countries. It is such a long time since WW2 now, that I think Germans can stop feeling bad for what happened in the war(s). I dont say that we should forget, but we can move on. I am Norwegian, so my country was invaded by the Third Reich, but that doesn`t mean that I am not impressed by the technical provess of the German army. The important point is that in any wargame we play as the soldier - the average man on the battlefield - the scenario would be totally different if there was a game where you played as the commander of a consentration camp. A game like that will never be made, of course. PS: Your English is far from bad! __________________

08-17-06, 06:40 AM	#11
Eichenlaub Electrician's Mate Join Date: May 2006 Location: Nijmegen Posts: 132 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Hi there, Well, where to start? I play just about all of my sims from the German perspective. I've played that way for about 10-12 years now. Doesn't mean I wouldn't play as an Allied commander at all, I will happily play an American commander in SHIV for instance (Dutch would be better of course). My first person shooters are usually Allied, but when multiplaying, I let the choice of weapons decide which side I'm on - if I want a tommygun I'll go Allied, if I want a Sturmgewehr, I'll go Axis. I happily mowed down tons of German infantry and armour in MOHAA, Call of Duty and Return to Wolfenstein. Didn't bother me either. When I first started playing simulations (flight mostly), I generally played from the Allied side. There were very few games around in the late eighties and early nineties that would allow a German perspective anyway, but mostly because during that era I was still walking around with a pair of anti-German glasses. When I was around 15 years of age, I got inspired to check out why certain things happened the way they did. I wondered why any German would want to fight for Hitler or the Kaiser. Stories about Allied exploits were easy to come by, but finding good stuff on German personnel was a tad more challenging. Eventually I read so much about the actual fighting men (focussing on Luftwaffe and kriegsmarine) of that war, I began to see some answers. One answer is that not everything is black and white. People fight wars for various reasons and the reasons that are popularized in history aren't always the actual ones. There's a broad spectrum of reasons that explain why people still fought for Hitler. Having acquired that broader scope, I feel I can play a game as a submariner without disrespecting the war casualties. What appeals to me about air and sea operations, is the un-personal flavour of combat: you generally find yourself shooting at a ship or plane, not a man. This was true in real wars too. Furthermore, sea and air warriors have always been forced to not only deal with the enemy, but also with the elements, which is a futher bond between enemies. It explains why there is more camaraderie between navy and air force personnel of opposing nations than between say, opposing infantrymen. Then there is the blood attached to a particular service: the Luftwaffe has some but the Kriegsmarine is virtually spotless (in actual sea operations, I don't know how they rated as regular troops). Don't forget the game aspect: simulations are in the end merely games designed to create a feeling and to entertain. It's entertaining doing something on your pc you could otherwise never have done in real life - or maybe never even wanted to in the first place. Being the underdog can be attractive. It is interesting to see whether you could change history or whether the underdogs really stood a chance to begin with. Seeing as Germany lost both wars, they must be considered the underdog in simulation games. Having read of the magnificent performance of the German Jagdflieger and submariners, I always enjoy comparing myself to them in simulation games. It would be unrealistic to have a score of 100+ aerial victories as an American, but about 105 Germans managed to do so. Likewise, no American submariner ever made it to 200,000 tons of shipping. I think that the German soldiers fought a tougher war because they had to keep on fighting until: 1) the war ended 2) they were killed 3) they were too wounded to continue fighting All in all their odds were bad. As a Brit or American fighting man, you'd have a chance to retire from combat after some time. To the Germans, the term "tour of duty" did not exist. It's unimaginably difficult to survive almost 6 years of combat while any supremacy in numbers and material that may have existed in 1939-41 was gradually dwindling away. Like someone else said: playing with the better tools is fun too. In all aspects of warfare Germany developed some technology that was very impressive and highly advanced. Think of the Stg.44, the Panther tank, the Type XXI submarine, the Me262, the V2, etc. It's fun to feel superior in your Panzerkampfwagen V when you espy a quartet of M4 Shermans 3 kilometres away... I gloat when I catch a convoy in 1940 with only two escorts while sailing in my fully loaded VIIB. I love it when my heavily armed Fw190 gets down on the deck, just below an IL-2 Sturmovik and blows it to bits without having to fear return fire. It's just fun. I also enjoyed Silent Service II, destroying half the Japanese fleet, or flying a Spitfire in 1940. All of the above explains why "fighting for the Germans" can be appealing. For the record: I accept submarine warfare as a legitimate type of combat and don't buy the "U-boat men were killing helpless civilians on merchants and are thus war criminals" line I get to hear every now and then. You don't have to be in the armed forces to be part of a war machine. Your question was valid and I don't think you've offended any one here. I hope my long answer can satisfy your curiosity somewhat. I think many people here will agree with at least some if not all of my points. Kind regards, Eichenlaub __________________ "Despite living in a country where soft-drugs, prostitution, gay-marriage and euthanasia are all legal, I've never felt any inclination towards any of them." When SHIV hits the scene, we should not fear the double D Geisha escort...we should welcome her...

08-17-06, 07:32 AM	#13
VonHelsching Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 1,025 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Although I come from a country that (among many others) suffered greatly in WWII, I don´t mind playing a computer game on the Axis side. I wouldn´t even mind if this game had an option for switching between dynamic and non dynamic campaign, and you had a chance to change history. In the end it´s just a game and most of us are here for the challenge. In the beginning I had no clue about naval and uboat warfare, but this game made me read history books, saw documantaries and visited websites, something that made me wiser. In how many games can you attribute this thing? My best guess is really not too many. Silent Hunter III handled the era gameplay-wise excellent: You change sub types, new technology, torpedos, the AI gets harder / has comparable technology / better airforce as time passes by, and eventually the war is lost. The Atlantic is the perfect set up for a challenging game __________________

08-17-06, 05:45 AM	#2
Frenssen Sparky Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 155 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	To me it`s a game, nothing more. If we follow your thoughts to the extreme we shouldn`t play violent games at all because as civilized people we don`t solve conflicts with violence.

08-17-06, 05:55 AM	#5
Frenssen Sparky Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 155 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Wargames is a way of trying cool military epuipment without the human suffering. With the knowledge we have today I don`t think there many who romanticize war

08-17-06, 07:08 AM	#12
StanUK Nub Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 3 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Hi sordid, Concerning just SHIII, I knew very little of the German Navy and U-Boats before playing. However after getting hooked it got me interested in the history and I have spent a lot of time reading books and websites about u-boats and the people who commanded and sailed in them. For me, its been a great experience and I have learnt a lot about what the German sailors went through and what they achieved. Therefore I have no problems with playing the side of the Germans as I feel that the game has allowed me to understand a part of history a little better and prompted me to learn more. Cheers Stan. ps. I am English and your English is very good pps. Eichenlaub a very good read

08-17-06, 07:33 AM	#14
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,052 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	1. It´s the only WWII subsim around (with good graphics and stuff) 2. For me Kriegsmarine and Third Reich are like to separate countries, AFAIK (correct me if I´m wrong) the uboats got orders from BdU, as the land forces got their orders direcly from Hitler. So, I´m having no problems playing as a german uboat commander. IMO, they were the most honorable section of the whole german army at that time. And before anyone says "Yea, but they killed innocent civilians!", sorry, but that´s war. The commanders didnt go knock the ships doors just to see if it´s full of soldiers or civilians. And if someone still insists that they are bad because they killed civilians, I point them towards Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Stalin etc.