Graf Zeppelin wreck found!

Phylacista · 07-28-06, 07:43 AM

I stumbled over this article http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/m...428978,00.html saying that sonar pictures in the Ostsee show a wreck that most probalby resembles the Graf Zeppelin. Article is in german.

07-28-06, 07:50 AM

Whoa!

But i hate this: "Sonar identifiziert Nazi-Flugzeugträger"
(Sonar identifies Nazi-Aircraftcarrier)

Calling German Kriegsmarine Ships "Nazi-Ships" makes me so damn angry!

Drebbel · 07-28-06, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Calling German Kriegsmarine Ships "Nazi-Ships" makes me so damn angry!

It is the truth isn't it ? We should not put our heads in the sand, we ARE fighting for the Nazis in SHIII.

07-28-06, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drebbel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Calling German Kriegsmarine Ships "Nazi-Ships" makes me so damn angry!

It is the truth isn't it ? We should not put our heads in the sand, we ARE fighting for the Nazis in SHIII.

No its not. Its just respectless against all the german sailors/soldiers who died... german soldier=nazi... oooof course...

we dont need to discuss the regime, no way... but to call everything whats german (from this time of course) nazi makes me really pi$$y...

bigboywooly · 07-28-06, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drebbel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Calling German Kriegsmarine Ships "Nazi-Ships" makes me so damn angry!

It is the truth isn't it ? We should not put our heads in the sand, we ARE fighting for the Nazis in SHIII.

No its not. Its just respectless against all the german sailors/soldiers who died... german soldier=nazi... oooof course...

we dont need to discuss the regime, no way... but to call everything whats german (from this time of course) nazi makes me really pi$$y...

Agreed

The Kreigsmarine were the least political branch of the German armed forces too
Very similair to the Royal Navy - they respect their traditions and heritage more than the oaf at the head of the country - Old skool

Drebbel · 07-28-06, 08:17 AM

They do not call all sailors Nazis. the call the vessel a Nazi carrier, nothing wrong with that IMHO.

I think too many people are sticking their head in the sand. The uboat force and general kriegsmarine was full of intelligent, well educated, high ranking officers and non-officers. Maybe the average sailor did not have much of a choice. But the high ranking officers made a consious choice to join/fight for the Nazis or not. Most of them unfortunately made the wrong choice and after the war hide behind the phrase "I just was doing my job"

And even those simple brave sailors mght simply be doing there job, but still they where doing the their thing for the wrong side, they where fighting the Nazi war. And if you fight (do the dirty work) for a certain group to make them more powerfull then you belong to that group and are a representative of that group.

Just my 2cts

KL Seestern · 07-28-06, 09:27 AM

Yes, I agree there's nothing wrong with the phrase 'Nazi aircraft carrier': as a designation of the ship itself, it's technically quite correct. It was built (or mostly built) at the behest of the Nazi government in order to form part of the Nazi military machine. As Drebbel says, the phrase doesn't imply anything about the political views of the crew members.

Onkel Neal · 07-28-06, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drebbel

They do not call all sailors Nazis. the call the vessel a Nazi carrier, nothing wrong with that IMHO.

I think too many people are sticking their head in the sand. The uboat force and general kriegsmarine was full of intelligent, well educated, high ranking officers and non-officers. Maybe the average sailor did not have much of a choice. But the high ranking officers made a consious choice to join/fight for the Nazis or not. Most of them unfortunately made the wrong choice and after the war hide behind the phrase "I just was doing my job"

And even those simple brave sailors mght simply be doing there job, but still they where doing the their thing for the wrong side, they where fighting the Nazi war. And if you fight (do the dirty work) for a certain group to make them more powerfull then you belong to that group and are a representative of that group.

Just my 2cts

I agree. Even the least political and most reluctant German sailor was fighting FOR the Nazi regime.

I don't know why calling a German vessel in WWII a "Nazi" vessel should make anyone angry, it's not generally meant as a slight to those honorable Kriegsmarine men who were drowning American, Canadian, and British sailors in the cold Atlantic swells. It's just common usage of the term.

just my opinion,
Neal

07-28-06, 10:46 AM

Maybe germans are just very sensitive to the word NAZI... yup, thats it... in the german forums is the same discussion because of a familiar thread... the most people over there agree and cant read this "NAZI Ship, NAZI Submarine, NAZI, Helmet, NAZI Shellcase, NAZI anything" - anymore...

Of course it was a "Nazi-Ship" because it was build for the regime... but it could be written a bit more "respectful" like "Kriegsmarine Ship found" etc...

what ever...

@Neal

Quote:

it's not generally meant as a slight to those honorable Kriegsmarine men who were drowning American, Canadian, and British sailors in the cold Atlantic swells.

Ok, my english is poor and maybe ive got it wrong, if so - sorry.

but: its absolutely not nessecary to get ironic... i could get ironic too and talking about how honorable it was to drop little boy and kill ah sorry "create" a bit collateral damage - to safe lifes of course...

but i dont, because everyone here should know that respect has to be paid for both/all sides... at least i hope everyone does...

Onkel Neal · 07-28-06, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

but: its absolutely not nessecary to get ironic... i could get ironic too and talking about how honorable it was to drop little boy and kill ah sorry "create" a bit collateral damage - to safe lifes of course...

but i dont, because everyone here should know that respect has to be paid for both/all sides... at least i hope everyone does...

yes, but we're not talking about all sides, just Nazis.

Jager · 07-28-06, 03:26 PM

FYI A regular soldier in the Wehrmacht could NOT be apart of the Nazi party, it was not allowed. You however have your exceptions with Goering, and the whole bunch but to call Kriegsmarine ships "Nazi ships" is just fubar for me. It is the same as saying that all German's who fought in WW2 for their country and loved ones are nazis which is certainly not true. It just enrages me to see that old sterotype even today and I think about my grandfather and uncle who fought in WW2 for the Germans and barely got out alive (my uncle being captured by the Russians and spending 7 years in a POW camp, he was only 18 years old too).

STEED · 07-28-06, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drebbel

They do not call all sailors Nazis. the call the vessel a Nazi carrier, nothing wrong with that IMHO.

I think too many people are sticking their head in the sand. The uboat force and general kriegsmarine was full of intelligent, well educated, high ranking officers and non-officers. Maybe the average sailor did not have much of a choice. But the high ranking officers made a consious choice to join/fight for the Nazis or not. Most of them unfortunately made the wrong choice and after the war hide behind the phrase "I just was doing my job"

And even those simple brave sailors mght simply be doing there job, but still they where doing the their thing for the wrong side, they where fighting the Nazi war. And if you fight (do the dirty work) for a certain group to make them more powerfull then you belong to that group and are a representative of that group.

Just my 2cts

I agree. Even the least political and most reluctant German sailor was fighting FOR the Nazi regime.

I don't know why calling a German vessel in WWII a "Nazi" vessel should make anyone angry, it's not generally meant as a slight to those honorable Kriegsmarine men who were drowning American, Canadian, and British sailors in the cold Atlantic swells. It's just common usage of the term.

just my opinion,
Neal

I wish people would grow up and move on the war ended 60 odd years ago. I agree with Neal.

RAM · 07-28-06, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I agree. Even the least political and most reluctant German sailor was fighting FOR the Nazi regime.

I guess that makes each and every US soldier serving overseas today an ultra-republican believer isn't it?.

WW2 may have ended 60 years ago, but nazism is pretty much alive today. And I can't blame people for not wanting their vets to be linked with a regime who killed millions of innocents, just because people don't want to stop making generalizations.

See, there were nazis in the german armed forces during WW2. There were those who liked Hitler, there were those who didn't. Not all of them were nazis, not all of them weren't.

Of course in certain parts of the german armed forces of the time almost everyone was a nazi. Waffen-SS, for instance. But the average sailor, soldier or pilot simply wasn't more a nazi than a current US soldier can be republican.

Soldiers fight for their life, for their families' safety, for their friend's lifes and for their country. In that order. There are cases where ideology is a main instance, but on average, that goes way way way behind the avobe-mentioned preferences.

In any case there's no such thing as a Nazi ship. There were ships built by nazis, a totally different thing. Being as this is a submarine-fan forum you must know that many U-boat kaleuns were not exactly nazis, yet they fought the war for their country nonetheless...

aboard nazi-built u-boats...not nazi u-boats.

Just my .02$$.

Safe-Keeper · 07-28-06, 04:12 PM

Quote:

In any case there's no such thing as a Nazi ship. There were ships built by nazis, a totally different thing. Being as this is a submarine-fan forum you must know that many U-boat kaleuns were not exactly nazis, yet they fought the war for their country nonetheless...

Exactly. American ships aren't "Republican/Democratic ships", German ships never were "Nazi ships".

Drebbel · 07-28-06, 04:16 PM

Quote:

because everyone here should know that respect has to be paid for both/all sides

I acknoledge their sorrow and pain. But should we really respect what they did ? Why ?

07-28-06, 07:43 AM	#1
Phylacista Electrician's Mate Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Aachen, Germany Posts: 133 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Graf Zeppelin wreck found! I stumbled over this article http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/m...428978,00.html saying that sonar pictures in the Ostsee show a wreck that most probalby resembles the Graf Zeppelin. Article is in german. __________________ commissioned 01APR1941 - 1.Flotilla Brest - 110,000 GRT total - 84 days at sea click pic to see how the real U-556 fared

07-28-06, 07:50 AM	#2
Nippelspanner Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Whoa! But i hate this: "Sonar identifiziert Nazi-Flugzeugträger" (Sonar identifies Nazi-Aircraftcarrier) Calling German Kriegsmarine Ships "Nazi-Ships" makes me so damn angry!

07-28-06, 08:17 AM	#6
Drebbel Dutch Sea Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Almost at periscope death ! Posts: 1,665 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	They do not call all sailors Nazis. the call the vessel a Nazi carrier, nothing wrong with that IMHO. I think too many people are sticking their head in the sand. The uboat force and general kriegsmarine was full of intelligent, well educated, high ranking officers and non-officers. Maybe the average sailor did not have much of a choice. But the high ranking officers made a consious choice to join/fight for the Nazis or not. Most of them unfortunately made the wrong choice and after the war hide behind the phrase "I just was doing my job" And even those simple brave sailors mght simply be doing there job, but still they where doing the their thing for the wrong side, they where fighting the Nazi war. And if you fight (do the dirty work) for a certain group to make them more powerfull then you belong to that group and are a representative of that group. Just my 2cts

07-28-06, 09:27 AM	#7
KL Seestern Mate Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 53 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	Yes, I agree there's nothing wrong with the phrase 'Nazi aircraft carrier': as a designation of the ship itself, it's technically quite correct. It was built (or mostly built) at the behest of the Nazi government in order to form part of the Nazi military machine. As Drebbel says, the phrase doesn't imply anything about the political views of the crew members.

07-28-06, 03:26 PM	#11
Jager Loader Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Land of "Freezing my rear off" Posts: 89 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	FYI A regular soldier in the Wehrmacht could NOT be apart of the Nazi party, it was not allowed. You however have your exceptions with Goering, and the whole bunch but to call Kriegsmarine ships "Nazi ships" is just fubar for me. It is the same as saying that all German's who fought in WW2 for their country and loved ones are nazis which is certainly not true. It just enrages me to see that old sterotype even today and I think about my grandfather and uncle who fought in WW2 for the Germans and barely got out alive (my uncle being captured by the Russians and spending 7 years in a POW camp, he was only 18 years old too).