[Politics] Israeli War Crimes: who are the true terroroists?

P_Funk · 07-25-06, 10:27 PM

UN Warning on Mid-East war crimes:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5197544.stm

Lebanon claims Israel is using banned weapons against civilians - White Phosphorus:http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchas...ing-banned.php

Israel uses Cluster Bombs on Civilian targets:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5201622.stm

What is White Phosphorus? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4441902.stm

Is Targeting of Civilian Infrastructure a War Crime?http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5198342.stm

So if all these unguided rockets raining down on Haifa causing only 14 deaths is to be considered a terrible atrocity then why is the use of White Phosphorus and Cluster Bombs on civilian targets which have caused hundreds of deaths not? Even if Hezbollah is entrenched within civilian areas, isn't it just as wrong to use weapons which are as indiscirminant in choosing their victims as the rockets which Hezbollah are firing? If hezbollah's actions are terrorism and illegal why are the weapons which Israel are using, which are significantly more deadly, and the means with which they deploy them (ie. within civilian areas), not such?

Regardless of the apparent threat to Israel's security should Israel not be as accountable for its actions as Hezbollah?

Yahoshua · 07-26-06, 12:41 AM

You are not underneath the rockets that are falling, you are not beside the restraunts that only look good now because the last makeover they had was done with a bus bombing, and you are certainly in no position to criticize Israel for doing what is right.

When the terrorist hide among civilians and they declare war against a government entity, do you really think that government is going to hold back from bombing those terrorists because they're among civlilians? Who is to blame for this situation? The attacker that hides among civilians, or the one who retaliates against the attacker? The U.S. sure hasn't thought twice about it. And we've bombed Baghdad and brought tanks into Iraq and mopped up the place. Israel is just following suit in her own arena.

Above image, courtesy IDF via the Jerusalem Post, shows a weapon seized during fighting with Hizbullah operatives in south Lebanon: an RPG marked with the logo of the Iranian military industry
Emuna News sources have reported since the beginning of the war that Iranian artillery officers from the Revolutionary Guard have been directing rocket and missile fire for the Hizbolla as well as operating the Fajr and Raad batteries. Now the cat is officially out of the bag.
Make no mistakes - Hizbolla is Iran's proxy and Hizbolla controls Lebanon. Therefore, Achmedinejad controls Lebanon. Achmedinejad has officially declared that the process of Israel's annihilation has begun. So far, he's outsmarting everyone.
From the bear's point of view, Iran is a winner either way. Meanwhile, international heat has been taken off of Iran's back; the hostilities in southern Lebanon are Tehran's classic diversion tactic that any semi-intelligent ten-year-old should be able to recognize. Iran forges ahead with its nuclear ambitions, which are so much closer to realization than most people know or care to admit.
Either we deal with an insolent and crass bear cub named Achmedinejad today, or else deal with a lethal Grizzly with nuclear fangs named Achmedinejad tomorrow. At this point, a Bush-Rice-Peres-CFR engineered ceasefire is a dire threat to our existence. Not only that - Israel's assent to a multinational force in South Lebanon is a tacit agreement to the recuperation of the Hizbolla; it won't take six years to wake up and find nukes just north of the Litani River in the Buffor and Nabatiyeh.

"Parts deleted due to irrelevance"

You'll be able to hear Lazer on Israel National Radio tomorrow morning, Tuesday 25 July, between 7-8 AM Israel time, which is 12-1 AM EDT (NYC, East coast USA), 11-12 PM CDT (Chicago and Midwest), 10-11 PM MDT (Denver and Boulder), or 9-10 PM PDT (LA and West Coast). Tamar Yona and Lazer will be discussing the war from a spiritual standpoint. Click here to hear the broadcast live.

Onkel Neal · 07-26-06, 12:57 AM

All right, remember, discuss and agree or disagree but don't get personal. When I come back in the morning, if this thread has turned ugly, it will get locked.

I don't care if you support the Israelis or if you think they are terrorists, but you better not start any flaming of people here who disagree with you.

Same goes for all other topics in this forum.

P_Funk · 07-26-06, 01:29 AM

I understand your point that Israel is under threat from Hezbullah. Yet that's not my point. The question is whether or not the mass killing of civilians is justifiable in the process of trying to achieve security. But don't try and tell me that unless I am living in Haifa I can't have an opinion about what happens. What about you? Are you living in South Lebanon being constantly bombed by Israeli Artillery and American made F-16s? Who are you to say that Israel is infinately justified because yourpropoganda machine is filling your head with reports of Iran using Lebanon as a proxy to annihilate Israel. Sure that's what they say but honestly. Is that gonna happen? Israel is constantly supplied with war materiel by the US and all that Hezbollah has managed to do is lob many poorly aimed rockets at Haifa and kill little more than a dozen people. Is that the brink of annihilation which you apparently are so afraid of? Iran might posture that it is using Lebanon as a proxy for attacking Israel but you overestimate Iran's influence over Hezbollah. Hezbollah takes Iran's aid but they have their own agenda. And how is this cirrent conflict convenient for Iran? Iran didn't want Hezbollah to attack Israel now. Iran wants Hezbollah as a proxy so that when and if they decide to annihilate Israel they are another tool with which to attack Israel. But this timing is not in Iran's favour. This was a poorly calculated move by hezbollah which has back fired. iran sees Hezbollah as a tool but Hezbollah has its own identity.

You over dramatize the potential consequences. The world willnot end tommorow if Israel does not annihilate Hezbollah immediately. If it was about to don't you think that the Israeli government would have attacked much sooner? Instead they waited for a provocation which they could exploit to make a move against Hezbollah. It is already acknowledged and documented that Israeli Generals have been making plans forthis campaign for more than a year. The Generals a year ago were showing these plans off to reporters and officials. So the potential threat from Hezbollah is blown way beyond what it truly is.

Yes the threat is there and needs to be faced yet the speed and ruthlessness which Israel is showing in lebanon is uncalled for since Israel is at no risk of being destroyed this week or the next.

I'm not syaing Israel doesn't need to protect itself. Israel has every right to exist. But the response to the considerably minor incident which sparked this conflict is so out of proportion. Hezbollah has no immediate plans to nuke Israel. They kidnapped Israeli soldiers with the plan to trade them for prisoners. that doesn't say they are gonna destroy Israel anytime soon. So the level of devastation being set upon Lebanon is unjustifiable.

So once again. Is the mass killing of civilians justifiable? Is the use of cluster bombs and white phosphorus even right under any circumstances? How do you justify the intentional targeting of Ambulances and even civilians in their cars as they flee cities and villages which Israel has just ordered them to leave? What does that have to do with Hezbollah? Is Israel not hypocritical for doing to Lebanon 100 times worse what they accuse Hezbollah of doing?

Answer the qoestion. Don't play the "I'm a Jew you're not" card. That's a tired game.

mog · 07-26-06, 02:31 AM

Is there any proof that Israel is targeting civilians? I know ambulances and the like have been hit, but that in itself does not constitute proof of intention.

scandium · 07-26-06, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mog

Is there any proof that Israel is targeting civilians? I know ambulances and the like have been hit, but that in itself does not constitute proof of intention.

UN Human Rights Commissioner:

Quote:

The Commissioner, Louise Arbour, has raised the possibility of prosecution. "The scale of killings in the region, and their predictability, could engage the personal criminal responsibility of those involved, particularly those in a position of command and control," she said.

"International humanitarian law is clear on the supreme obligations to protect civilians during hostilities."

"Indiscriminate shelling of cities constitutes a foreseeable and unacceptable targeting of civilians", she said. "Similarly, the bombardment of sites with alleged military significance, but resulting invariably in the killing of innocent civilians, is unjustifiable.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5198342.stm

Clear enough for you?

Skybird · 07-26-06, 05:15 AM

At least the phosphorus theory has beeen strongly objected. On German TV there was a German family, originally from the ME, who before were said to be victims of such a strike. The French or the Syrian doctor, I don't remember, who exmained them, ruled out that their burning were caused by phosphorus. Concerning cluster ammunition, I would be surprised if they are NOT used. the pity is that they are an effective weapon, and civilians and militias cannot be separated in this place, since the latter has dug itself deep into the civilian infrastructure and living surroundings.

Skybird · 07-26-06, 05:16 AM

Quote:

International humanitarian law is clear on the supreme obligations to protect civilians during hostilities." "Indiscriminate shelling of cities constitutes a foreseeable and unacceptable targeting of civilians", she said. "Similarly, the bombardment of sites with alleged military significance, but resulting invariably in the killing of innocent civilians, is unjustifiable.

Too bad that nobody told that the Hezbollah years ago. Too bad that noone cares to protest against that. People complain about Israel now. Why is it that nobody complains about Hezbollah?

Skybird · 07-26-06, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P_Funk

es the threat is there and needs to be faced yet the speed and ruthlessness which Israel is showing in lebanon is uncalled for since Israel is at no risk of being destroyed this week or the next.

</p>A slow-rate, silent, constant dying on Israeli streets is more acceptable, then? since the beginning of the second intifada in autumn 2000, until the beginning of the current war, Israel has lost 1100 civilians to attcks on it's street. that is more than double as much as the cost of lifes in this current war. All these killings in Israel were intentional targetting of civilians. when would you think, is it time to say: enough is enough? When has a state a responsebility to protect it's citizens? How could one sit down and negotiate with a group doping these crimes? Is it acceptable that such a group becomes a power faction in the region, spreading Iran influence there and sowing unrest amonhst Arab neighbours (whose governments all would be happy if Hezbollah gets crushed)?

mog · 07-26-06, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scandium

"Indiscriminate shelling of cities constitutes a foreseeable and unacceptable targeting of civilians", she said. "Similarly, the bombardment of sites with alleged military significance, but resulting invariably in the killing of innocent civilians, is unjustifiable.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5198342.stm

Clear enough for you?

She makes clear what would constitute a human rights violation, but doesn't present any evidence. Of course Israeli commanders could be shelling cities indiscriminately, or targeting buildings without proper intelligence, but are they? It would require a lot more than simply pointing at the number of civilian dead to show that.

Oberon · 07-26-06, 05:46 AM

Bombing a UN bunker that's been there since the late 1940s wasn't exactly a smart move. I mean, I know the UN is as wonky as a corkscrew these days, but I don't think Hezbollah were using it as a secret base....

That's gonna come back and bite them in the ass for sure.

micky1up · 07-26-06, 06:25 AM

well before you critisize two iranian soldiers have been found alongside the dead terroists israel know more than their letting on it seems iran are behind the recent attacks on israel dont critisize untill you have all the intelligence and information about why this is going on mind you as i have said its easy to find fault with people fighting thousands on miles away from you comfortable seat in your non threatened country

catar M · 07-26-06, 06:34 AM

They all the same Israel , Lebanon , Afghanistan and Iraq no one will give up centimeter off there argument's. Go back and think how all this started in late 40's Israel did same thing bombing killing

STEED · 07-26-06, 06:41 AM

In all wars mistakes are made and yes it's a tragedy but errors are made there is no such thing as a perfect war, accidents are going to happen live with it, stop going on like it's the greatest crime ever committed in today's world.

PS. The media really love whipping these sorts of events up and blowing them out of all proportion, this has been going on in all conflicts over the years.

PPS. No I am not having ago at anyone.

micky1up · 07-26-06, 06:42 AM

1. under UN resolution israel left lebanon years ago under the proviso that the goverment disbanded and stopped the terroist threat which they have completely failed to do

2. the terroist started this

3. if they where french or german soldiers who were kidnapped these two countries would be sending in forces to get them

4 the terroists dug a tunnel into sovereign israel territory to carry out the kidnapping

5 the iranians are clearly behind this entire episode and their troops are figthing in lebanon with the terroists

and finally what would you do if you were israel or it was happening to your country?

07-25-06, 10:27 PM	#1
P_Funk Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 2,537 Downloads: 129 Uploads: 0	[Politics] Israeli War Crimes: who are the true terroroists? UN Warning on Mid-East war crimes:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5197544.stm Lebanon claims Israel is using banned weapons against civilians - White Phosphorus:http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchas...ing-banned.php Israel uses Cluster Bombs on Civilian targets:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5201622.stm What is White Phosphorus? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4441902.stm Is Targeting of Civilian Infrastructure a War Crime?http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5198342.stm So if all these unguided rockets raining down on Haifa causing only 14 deaths is to be considered a terrible atrocity then why is the use of White Phosphorus and Cluster Bombs on civilian targets which have caused hundreds of deaths not? Even if Hezbollah is entrenched within civilian areas, isn't it just as wrong to use weapons which are as indiscirminant in choosing their victims as the rockets which Hezbollah are firing? If hezbollah's actions are terrorism and illegal why are the weapons which Israel are using, which are significantly more deadly, and the means with which they deploy them (ie. within civilian areas), not such? Regardless of the apparent threat to Israel's security should Israel not be as accountable for its actions as Hezbollah? __________________ Last edited by P_Funk; 07-25-06 at 10:31 PM.

07-26-06, 12:41 AM	#2
Yahoshua The Old Man Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,493 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	You are not underneath the rockets that are falling, you are not beside the restraunts that only look good now because the last makeover they had was done with a bus bombing, and you are certainly in no position to criticize Israel for doing what is right. When the terrorist hide among civilians and they declare war against a government entity, do you really think that government is going to hold back from bombing those terrorists because they're among civlilians? Who is to blame for this situation? The attacker that hides among civilians, or the one who retaliates against the attacker? The U.S. sure hasn't thought twice about it. And we've bombed Baghdad and brought tanks into Iraq and mopped up the place. Israel is just following suit in her own arena. Above image, courtesy IDF via the Jerusalem Post, shows a weapon seized during fighting with Hizbullah operatives in south Lebanon: an RPG marked with the logo of the Iranian military industry Emuna News sources have reported since the beginning of the war that Iranian artillery officers from the Revolutionary Guard have been directing rocket and missile fire for the Hizbolla as well as operating the Fajr and Raad batteries. Now the cat is officially out of the bag. Make no mistakes - Hizbolla is Iran's proxy and Hizbolla controls Lebanon. Therefore, Achmedinejad controls Lebanon. Achmedinejad has officially declared that the process of Israel's annihilation has begun. So far, he's outsmarting everyone. From the bear's point of view, Iran is a winner either way. Meanwhile, international heat has been taken off of Iran's back; the hostilities in southern Lebanon are Tehran's classic diversion tactic that any semi-intelligent ten-year-old should be able to recognize. Iran forges ahead with its nuclear ambitions, which are so much closer to realization than most people know or care to admit. Either we deal with an insolent and crass bear cub named Achmedinejad today, or else deal with a lethal Grizzly with nuclear fangs named Achmedinejad tomorrow. At this point, a Bush-Rice-Peres-CFR engineered ceasefire is a dire threat to our existence. Not only that - Israel's assent to a multinational force in South Lebanon is a tacit agreement to the recuperation of the Hizbolla; it won't take six years to wake up and find nukes just north of the Litani River in the Buffor and Nabatiyeh. "Parts deleted due to irrelevance" You'll be able to hear Lazer on Israel National Radio tomorrow morning, Tuesday 25 July, between 7-8 AM Israel time, which is 12-1 AM EDT (NYC, East coast USA), 11-12 PM CDT (Chicago and Midwest), 10-11 PM MDT (Denver and Boulder), or 9-10 PM PDT (LA and West Coast). Tamar Yona and Lazer will be discussing the war from a spiritual standpoint. Click here to hear the broadcast live. __________________ Science is the organized unpredictability that strives not to set limits to mans' capabilities, but is the engine by which the limits of mans' understanding is defined-Yahoshua Last edited by Yahoshua; 07-26-06 at 12:52 AM.

07-26-06, 12:57 AM	#3
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	All right, remember, discuss and agree or disagree but don't get personal. When I come back in the morning, if this thread has turned ugly, it will get locked. I don't care if you support the Israelis or if you think they are terrorists, but you better not start any flaming of people here who disagree with you. Same goes for all other topics in this forum. __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

07-26-06, 01:29 AM	#4
P_Funk Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 2,537 Downloads: 129 Uploads: 0	I understand your point that Israel is under threat from Hezbullah. Yet that's not my point. The question is whether or not the mass killing of civilians is justifiable in the process of trying to achieve security. But don't try and tell me that unless I am living in Haifa I can't have an opinion about what happens. What about you? Are you living in South Lebanon being constantly bombed by Israeli Artillery and American made F-16s? Who are you to say that Israel is infinately justified because yourpropoganda machine is filling your head with reports of Iran using Lebanon as a proxy to annihilate Israel. Sure that's what they say but honestly. Is that gonna happen? Israel is constantly supplied with war materiel by the US and all that Hezbollah has managed to do is lob many poorly aimed rockets at Haifa and kill little more than a dozen people. Is that the brink of annihilation which you apparently are so afraid of? Iran might posture that it is using Lebanon as a proxy for attacking Israel but you overestimate Iran's influence over Hezbollah. Hezbollah takes Iran's aid but they have their own agenda. And how is this cirrent conflict convenient for Iran? Iran didn't want Hezbollah to attack Israel now. Iran wants Hezbollah as a proxy so that when and if they decide to annihilate Israel they are another tool with which to attack Israel. But this timing is not in Iran's favour. This was a poorly calculated move by hezbollah which has back fired. iran sees Hezbollah as a tool but Hezbollah has its own identity. You over dramatize the potential consequences. The world willnot end tommorow if Israel does not annihilate Hezbollah immediately. If it was about to don't you think that the Israeli government would have attacked much sooner? Instead they waited for a provocation which they could exploit to make a move against Hezbollah. It is already acknowledged and documented that Israeli Generals have been making plans forthis campaign for more than a year. The Generals a year ago were showing these plans off to reporters and officials. So the potential threat from Hezbollah is blown way beyond what it truly is. Yes the threat is there and needs to be faced yet the speed and ruthlessness which Israel is showing in lebanon is uncalled for since Israel is at no risk of being destroyed this week or the next. I'm not syaing Israel doesn't need to protect itself. Israel has every right to exist. But the response to the considerably minor incident which sparked this conflict is so out of proportion. Hezbollah has no immediate plans to nuke Israel. They kidnapped Israeli soldiers with the plan to trade them for prisoners. that doesn't say they are gonna destroy Israel anytime soon. So the level of devastation being set upon Lebanon is unjustifiable. So once again. Is the mass killing of civilians justifiable? Is the use of cluster bombs and white phosphorus even right under any circumstances? How do you justify the intentional targeting of Ambulances and even civilians in their cars as they flee cities and villages which Israel has just ordered them to leave? What does that have to do with Hezbollah? Is Israel not hypocritical for doing to Lebanon 100 times worse what they accuse Hezbollah of doing? Answer the qoestion. Don't play the "I'm a Jew you're not" card. That's a tired game. __________________

07-26-06, 05:15 AM	#7
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,615 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	At least the phosphorus theory has beeen strongly objected. On German TV there was a German family, originally from the ME, who before were said to be victims of such a strike. The French or the Syrian doctor, I don't remember, who exmained them, ruled out that their burning were caused by phosphorus. Concerning cluster ammunition, I would be surprised if they are NOT used. the pity is that they are an effective weapon, and civilians and militias cannot be separated in this place, since the latter has dug itself deep into the civilian infrastructure and living surroundings. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

07-26-06, 02:31 AM	#5
mog Medic Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sydney Posts: 163 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Is there any proof that Israel is targeting civilians? I know ambulances and the like have been hit, but that in itself does not constitute proof of intention.

07-26-06, 05:46 AM	#11
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Bombing a UN bunker that's been there since the late 1940s wasn't exactly a smart move. I mean, I know the UN is as wonky as a corkscrew these days, but I don't think Hezbollah were using it as a secret base.... That's gonna come back and bite them in the ass for sure.

07-26-06, 06:25 AM	#12
micky1up Captain Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: helensburgh Posts: 525 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	well before you critisize two iranian soldiers have been found alongside the dead terroists israel know more than their letting on it seems iran are behind the recent attacks on israel dont critisize untill you have all the intelligence and information about why this is going on mind you as i have said its easy to find fault with people fighting thousands on miles away from you comfortable seat in your non threatened country

07-26-06, 06:34 AM	#13
catar M Torpedoman Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Perth W.A Posts: 118 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	They all the same Israel , Lebanon , Afghanistan and Iraq no one will give up centimeter off there argument's. Go back and think how all this started in late 40's Israel did same thing bombing killing Last edited by catar M; 07-26-06 at 06:38 AM.

07-26-06, 06:41 AM	#14
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	In all wars mistakes are made and yes it's a tragedy but errors are made there is no such thing as a perfect war, accidents are going to happen live with it, stop going on like it's the greatest crime ever committed in today's world. PS. The media really love whipping these sorts of events up and blowing them out of all proportion, this has been going on in all conflicts over the years. PPS. No I am not having ago at anyone. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT! Last edited by STEED; 07-26-06 at 06:43 AM.

07-26-06, 06:42 AM	#15
micky1up Captain Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: helensburgh Posts: 525 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	1. under UN resolution israel left lebanon years ago under the proviso that the goverment disbanded and stopped the terroist threat which they have completely failed to do 2. the terroist started this 3. if they where french or german soldiers who were kidnapped these two countries would be sending in forces to get them 4 the terroists dug a tunnel into sovereign israel territory to carry out the kidnapping 5 the iranians are clearly behind this entire episode and their troops are figthing in lebanon with the terroists and finally what would you do if you were israel or it was happening to your country?