how do u guys play?

Laffertytig · 06-04-06, 06:37 PM

ive got sub command and am thinkin of buyin this as well. im sub command i would play without any AI assistance and if i had AI on id feel like i was cheatin, but i would just end up gettin frustated tryin to keep track of lots of contacts, TMA etc.

do u guys play with any AI help or am i just crap?

Deadeye313 · 06-04-06, 10:59 PM

I think almost everyone uses auto TMA. The rest of the systems are pretty easy to learn with practice, but TMA can be so frustrating and time consuming (because you have to wait for updates from sensors and balancing that with trying not to get picked up yourself) that this is typically the only thing automated.

LuftWolf · 06-04-06, 11:30 PM

I think TMA is pretty easy actually.

The problem is that people don't do any of the work required to get TMA. Going to the station and moving the ruler around is the last thing you do.

First, you have to have some kind of educated guess from sonar and situational awareness what the contact is and what it is likely to be doing. Then you have to maneover your ship in such a way as to get a series of good bearing lines (at least two recording legs). Hopefully, you can also run DEMON analysis and get a estimate of the speed of the contact.

With the speed of the contact and a good set of bearing lines, the only thing left is to decide on a lag or a lead course, and then make an initial range estimate and start fiddling with the ruler. Generally speaking, if after that, you don't get a good solution in a minute or two, the contact is either maneovering, or you have made an error.

It is all of this that is the *essence* of submarine contact management and situational awareness... for me to play without this is like having Show Truth on.

That having been said, the new aTMA is bad enough to make the game fun to play in MP even with players who use it, so there is no problem using aTMA in my opinion, other than the game is much less fun for the person using the aTMA feature, but obviously there are many who disagree.

PS One caveat is that the TMA station on the frigate is a bit of a pain, but then again, I still prefer not to use aTMA because TMA is really not often needed on the FFG only contact merging and dropping, which the station works great for. If you urgently need TMA on the FFG, then it's well past the time you've used your active sonar, at least in my experience.

Deadeye313 · 06-05-06, 09:47 AM

yeah, after trying to do a TMA in a quick mission, I found that anything more than 10K yds away from the FFG will be almost impossible to do TMA on unless they going fast and are parrallel to you.

*edit*
well I did a little more practice and found the TMA actually isn't that hard. if you have a demon on the guy and 2 lines of bearing, you can get speed, course and distance. But it's still a pain in the arse when you can't do good TMA on contacts beyond 10Kyds.

but, like the helo and P-3 all you really need a line of bearing anyway. After this TMA episode, I've learned the FFG is nothing more than a carrier/sonobouy. The Helicopters are all that the FFG has over the Subs.

LuftWolf · 06-05-06, 01:00 PM

The active sonar on the FFG is pretty helpful in finding targets in high SNR because it is capable of single-beam sounding... also, the TA is helpful for use under the layer; it is possible to detect submarines without being counterdetected if they are running deep and you have your TA under a good layer.

In general, though, you are right, the FFG's main strength in ASW are it's MH60's.

FERdeBOER · 06-05-06, 02:21 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, I use manual TMA, but in think that, in the last patch, even if you set TMA auto, you can change things and the AI will respect them (at last!). I mean, you can set the speed to 10 knots, mark it, and now the IA will calculate the TMA with 10 knots.

So in this way you can do a semi-auto TMA or even you can make the TMA for the contacs you think are important and leave the rest to the AI.

06-04-06, 06:37 PM	#1
Laffertytig Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 757 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	how do u guys play? ive got sub command and am thinkin of buyin this as well. im sub command i would play without any AI assistance and if i had AI on id feel like i was cheatin, but i would just end up gettin frustated tryin to keep track of lots of contacts, TMA etc. do u guys play with any AI help or am i just crap?

06-04-06, 10:59 PM	#2
Deadeye313 Bosun Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 61 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I think almost everyone uses auto TMA. The rest of the systems are pretty easy to learn with practice, but TMA can be so frustrating and time consuming (because you have to wait for updates from sensors and balancing that with trying not to get picked up yourself) that this is typically the only thing automated. __________________

06-04-06, 11:30 PM	#3
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I think TMA is pretty easy actually. The problem is that people don't do any of the work required to get TMA. Going to the station and moving the ruler around is the last thing you do. First, you have to have some kind of educated guess from sonar and situational awareness what the contact is and what it is likely to be doing. Then you have to maneover your ship in such a way as to get a series of good bearing lines (at least two recording legs). Hopefully, you can also run DEMON analysis and get a estimate of the speed of the contact. With the speed of the contact and a good set of bearing lines, the only thing left is to decide on a lag or a lead course, and then make an initial range estimate and start fiddling with the ruler. Generally speaking, if after that, you don't get a good solution in a minute or two, the contact is either maneovering, or you have made an error. It is all of this that is the essence of submarine contact management and situational awareness... for me to play without this is like having Show Truth on. That having been said, the new aTMA is bad enough to make the game fun to play in MP even with players who use it, so there is no problem using aTMA in my opinion, other than the game is much less fun for the person using the aTMA feature, but obviously there are many who disagree. PS One caveat is that the TMA station on the frigate is a bit of a pain, but then again, I still prefer not to use aTMA because TMA is really not often needed on the FFG only contact merging and dropping, which the station works great for. If you urgently need TMA on the FFG, then it's well past the time you've used your active sonar, at least in my experience. __________________ LW Last edited by LuftWolf; 06-04-06 at 11:32 PM.

06-05-06, 09:47 AM	#4
Deadeye313 Bosun Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 61 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	yeah, after trying to do a TMA in a quick mission, I found that anything more than 10K yds away from the FFG will be almost impossible to do TMA on unless they going fast and are parrallel to you. edit well I did a little more practice and found the TMA actually isn't that hard. if you have a demon on the guy and 2 lines of bearing, you can get speed, course and distance. But it's still a pain in the arse when you can't do good TMA on contacts beyond 10Kyds. but, like the helo and P-3 all you really need a line of bearing anyway. After this TMA episode, I've learned the FFG is nothing more than a carrier/sonobouy. The Helicopters are all that the FFG has over the Subs. __________________ Last edited by Deadeye313; 06-05-06 at 12:28 PM.

06-05-06, 01:00 PM	#5
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	The active sonar on the FFG is pretty helpful in finding targets in high SNR because it is capable of single-beam sounding... also, the TA is helpful for use under the layer; it is possible to detect submarines without being counterdetected if they are running deep and you have your TA under a good layer. In general, though, you are right, the FFG's main strength in ASW are it's MH60's. __________________ LW

06-05-06, 02:21 PM	#6
FERdeBOER XO Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 431 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 1	Correct me if I'm wrong, I use manual TMA, but in think that, in the last patch, even if you set TMA auto, you can change things and the AI will respect them (at last!). I mean, you can set the speed to 10 knots, mark it, and now the IA will calculate the TMA with 10 knots. So in this way you can do a semi-auto TMA or even you can make the TMA for the contacs you think are important and leave the rest to the AI. __________________ Hay dos tipos de buques: los submarinos... y los blancos. There are two types of ships: the subs... and the targets.