Type VIIB bow correction

Flakwalker · 10-25-05, 03:32 PM

I had uploaded at U-Boot.Realsimulation.com a file Bow Fix Type VIIB.rar wich remove the mast on the bow at the left of the cable cutter, Seeadler commented about before and I found it very easy to fix. It should be available tomorrow.
Inside the rar there are screens that show the changes.

Kpt. Lehmann · 10-25-05, 03:35 PM

Marhkimov · 10-25-05, 03:35 PM

Hey, that's a neat fix.

So in real life, there was really no flag staff on the bow?

Flakwalker · 10-25-05, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marhkimov

Hey, that's a neat fix.

So in real life, there was really no flag staff on the bow?

It seems not, maybe very early ones sharing things in common with Type II, however I search on internet and there are no proof of mast on the type VIIB bow.

Hackett · 10-25-05, 04:41 PM

I have copies from original scale drawings of the Type VII boat. From original form through B and C models.
although i can not find any photographic evidence to backup the drawings. It appears the original form Type VII, and the Type VIIC (Early production examples.) did not exhibit the Jack staff on the bow.
However! The Type VIIB drawings do exhibit the Jack staff on the bow.

Whatever the true fact production of these vessels, i endorse the work Flakwalker has started.

Marhkimov · 10-25-05, 05:36 PM

Well, realistic or not, I definately prefer no flag staff on the bow. Somehow, i don't feel that a big rod up in the front of my u-boat will make me look too sleek...

Flakwalker · 10-25-05, 06:52 PM

Yes, in fact there are already a flag mast on the AA nest

. Maybe it was present and used to harbor tow operations, altough it make the cable cutter useless.

But well, now there are options

10-25-05, 09:24 PM

Uhm...guys...this thing isnt a flagstaff!
im sorry, i cant remember what it is, but this discussion was in a german forum shortly after the rel. of sh3 and later one guy (a REAL sub freak

) told us about it, but i cant remember, sorry...

short: i guess its not unrealistic at all and was part of the early type VII(B). the later boats didnt had this thing, so its ok to remove it (i think it looks better without it anyway)

just a few thoughts :hmm:

Marhkimov · 10-25-05, 10:03 PM

Could it be the front end of the radar?

I dunno, I'm not really a u-boat anatomist....

Duke of Earl · 10-25-05, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Uhm...guys...this thing isnt a flagstaff!
im sorry, i cant remember what it is, but this discussion was in a german forum shortly after the rel. of sh3 and later one guy (a REAL sub freak

) told us about it, but i cant remember, sorry...

short: i guess its not unrealistic at all and was part of the early type VII(B). the later boats didnt had this thing, so its ok to remove it (i think it looks better without it anyway)

just a few thoughts :hmm:

I think it's still called a 'JackStaff' in the U.S. Navy.. it's for the display special kind of Naval Pennant related to Squadron of the Naval Unit... or maybe the Rank of Commanding Officer onboard.. but it's not for the display of a National Flag...

Cordialement, Duke of earl

Marhkimov · 10-25-05, 10:35 PM

So we're all in agreement that it is, in fact, a STAFF...

Hackett · 10-25-05, 10:38 PM

The pole on the bow wasn't used to fly a flag, per se! The "Flag Staff" was, as already mentioned. located aft of the FlaK gun platform. The "Jack Staff" -The wee pole at the heart of this topic.
was a simple instrument used to aid in navigation. The reason for it's intermittent use on various boat models is anyone's guess.
Probadly an oversight on one of the desginers. The transition from sail, and wood, to steam, to coal, diesel, and steel hadn't, at that time been more than 35 yrs. Old methods of sailing, still being incorporated into modern designs.

The only people who are likely to miss this feature on the Type VIIB model, are people who are more anal retentive than iam, about "Rivet Counting".

Marhkimov · 10-25-05, 10:45 PM

PLEASE PEOPLE... please don't spend all of your time counting counting rivets.

Instead, you could be outside getting some fresh air, or maybe having a walk at the local park, or hiking on a trail, or biking along the shoreline... Doesn't that just sound nice?

Oh ******* it... just sit in front of your SH3 monitor and fiddle with your staff...

Hackett · 10-25-05, 11:22 PM

I have just been "Reliably" informed, with a slapped wrist! That the "Jack Staff" (Also known as the "Merchant Jack, Stern Jack, Signal Jack", and of course the "Pilot Jack".) used on vessels after 1899, was used in an attempt to standardize pennat signals to request a harbour pilot. With each nation having it's own pennat, and only truely being standardized in 1946.

"The term Pilot Jack, according to Cecil King, first appeared in an official printed document in the Royal Navy General Signals of 1868, but not in Merchant Navy publications until the 1900 revisions to the Code of Signals. It was being used in Orders in Council by 1933, probably incorrectly, as it had not been defined."

"I gather that German merchant ships still (again) follow this practice, flying the flag of the homeport at the jackstaff. But--and I'm far from an expert on German flag terminology, as my recent excursion into Flagge/Fahne will have made clear--this flag seems to be called in German a Bugflagge (bow flag), with the term GÃ¶sch (jack) confined to the national jack.
Until compelled to fly the swastika flag as a jack, German liners sailing out of Hamburg and Bremen flew the pre-1867 national flags of those cities as jacks."

So the installation of the "Jack Staff" can be prudentley presumed to be an oversight, or mistake, as at the time of building (Not to be confused with commissioning.) the country, while re-arming was infact still at peace.

Duke of Earl · 10-25-05, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackett

The pole on the bow wasn't used to fly a flag, per se! The "Flag Staff" was, as already mentioned. located aft of the FlaK gun platform. The "Jack Staff" -The wee pole at the heart of this topic.
was a simple instrument used to aid in navigation. The reason for it's intermittent use on various boat models is anyone's guess.
Probadly an oversight on one of the desginers. The transition from sail, and wood, to steam, to coal, diesel, and steel hadn't, at that time been more than 35 yrs. Old methods of sailing, still being incorporated into modern designs.

The only people who are likely to miss this feature on the Type VIIB model, are people who are more anal retentive than iam, about "Rivet Counting".

Come to think of it, it might have had a white Bow Light mounted on it too... as an aid to Navigation... i.e. Anchor Light for inport use...

Cordialement, Duke of Earl

10-25-05, 03:32 PM	#1
Flakwalker Electrician's Mate Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 131 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Type VIIB bow correction I had uploaded at U-Boot.Realsimulation.com a file Bow Fix Type VIIB.rar wich remove the mast on the bow at the left of the cable cutter, Seeadler commented about before and I found it very easy to fix. It should be available tomorrow. Inside the rar there are screens that show the changes.

10-25-05, 03:35 PM	#2
Kpt. Lehmann GWX Project Director Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 6,992 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	__________________ www.thegreywolves.com All you need is good men. - Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock

10-25-05, 03:35 PM	#3
Marhkimov Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bay Area, California, USA Posts: 2,377 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Hey, that's a neat fix. So in real life, there was really no flag staff on the bow? __________________ It takes two to tango

10-25-05, 05:36 PM	#6
Marhkimov Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bay Area, California, USA Posts: 2,377 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Well, realistic or not, I definately prefer no flag staff on the bow. Somehow, i don't feel that a big rod up in the front of my u-boat will make me look too sleek... __________________ It takes two to tango

10-25-05, 10:03 PM	#9
Marhkimov Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bay Area, California, USA Posts: 2,377 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Could it be the front end of the radar? I dunno, I'm not really a u-boat anatomist.... __________________ It takes two to tango

10-25-05, 04:41 PM	#5
Hackett Mate Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 60 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 0	I have copies from original scale drawings of the Type VII boat. From original form through B and C models. although i can not find any photographic evidence to backup the drawings. It appears the original form Type VII, and the Type VIIC (Early production examples.) did not exhibit the Jack staff on the bow. However! The Type VIIB drawings do exhibit the Jack staff on the bow. Whatever the true fact production of these vessels, i endorse the work Flakwalker has started.

10-25-05, 06:52 PM	#7
Flakwalker Electrician's Mate Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 131 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Yes, in fact there are already a flag mast on the AA nest . Maybe it was present and used to harbor tow operations, altough it make the cable cutter useless. But well, now there are options

10-25-05, 09:24 PM	#8
Nippelspanner Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Uhm...guys...this thing isnt a flagstaff! im sorry, i cant remember what it is, but this discussion was in a german forum shortly after the rel. of sh3 and later one guy (a REAL sub freak ) told us about it, but i cant remember, sorry... short: i guess its not unrealistic at all and was part of the early type VII(B). the later boats didnt had this thing, so its ok to remove it (i think it looks better without it anyway) just a few thoughts :hmm:

10-25-05, 10:35 PM	#11
Marhkimov Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bay Area, California, USA Posts: 2,377 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	So we're all in agreement that it is, in fact, a STAFF... __________________ It takes two to tango

10-25-05, 10:38 PM	#12
Hackett Mate Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 60 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 0	The pole on the bow wasn't used to fly a flag, per se! The "Flag Staff" was, as already mentioned. located aft of the FlaK gun platform. The "Jack Staff" -The wee pole at the heart of this topic. was a simple instrument used to aid in navigation. The reason for it's intermittent use on various boat models is anyone's guess. Probadly an oversight on one of the desginers. The transition from sail, and wood, to steam, to coal, diesel, and steel hadn't, at that time been more than 35 yrs. Old methods of sailing, still being incorporated into modern designs. The only people who are likely to miss this feature on the Type VIIB model, are people who are more anal retentive than iam, about "Rivet Counting".

10-25-05, 10:45 PM	#13
Marhkimov Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bay Area, California, USA Posts: 2,377 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	PLEASE PEOPLE... please don't spend all of your time counting counting rivets. Instead, you could be outside getting some fresh air, or maybe having a walk at the local park, or hiking on a trail, or biking along the shoreline... Doesn't that just sound nice? Oh ******* it... just sit in front of your SH3 monitor and fiddle with your staff... __________________ It takes two to tango

10-25-05, 11:22 PM	#14
Hackett Mate Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 60 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 0	I have just been "Reliably" informed, with a slapped wrist! That the "Jack Staff" (Also known as the "Merchant Jack, Stern Jack, Signal Jack", and of course the "Pilot Jack".) used on vessels after 1899, was used in an attempt to standardize pennat signals to request a harbour pilot. With each nation having it's own pennat, and only truely being standardized in 1946. "The term Pilot Jack, according to Cecil King, first appeared in an official printed document in the Royal Navy General Signals of 1868, but not in Merchant Navy publications until the 1900 revisions to the Code of Signals. It was being used in Orders in Council by 1933, probably incorrectly, as it had not been defined." "I gather that German merchant ships still (again) follow this practice, flying the flag of the homeport at the jackstaff. But--and I'm far from an expert on German flag terminology, as my recent excursion into Flagge/Fahne will have made clear--this flag seems to be called in German a Bugflagge (bow flag), with the term GÃ¶sch (jack) confined to the national jack. Until compelled to fly the swastika flag as a jack, German liners sailing out of Hamburg and Bremen flew the pre-1867 national flags of those cities as jacks." So the installation of the "Jack Staff" can be prudentley presumed to be an oversight, or mistake, as at the time of building (Not to be confused with commissioning.) the country, while re-arming was infact still at peace.