Escorts way too effective

mike_espo · 03-03-06, 11:00 AM

I played the XXI scenario. Just wanted to test my theory that escorts late war are waaay overmodelled.

Dived to 30m went to 14knots. Used the external view to see how escorts reacted.....they still are able to drop DC at my depth no matter if I change or not...

Also, even late war, escorts cannot move at 14+knots and listen effectively, let alone use ASDIC...

But... Escort is pinging away following me when IM doing 14kn!!! ..in reality, escorts could never do this...even in 1945. Max speed for using ASDIC is 10kn.

ASDIC/Sonar even late war still did not have capacity to obtain depth.

Why is it modelled so in SHIII????

Tonnage_Ace · 03-03-06, 12:18 PM

A lot of things aren't modelled correctly in the game, take the IXD2's range or the fact that the snorkel, when 1m above water is recognised by the game as being as big as a ship. These are just two faults I can think of right now, these as well as a few others can be fixed by mods(infuriating that the mods are simple adjustments that the dev team could have made in a follow-up patch to 1.4b, prolly take a dev. member 5 seconds to correct rather than have the community go through trial and error to find and fix the small problem). I still love the game but only did so after d/ling some definately must-have mods. Hope they take greater care with SHIV

mike_espo · 03-03-06, 12:36 PM

Is there a mod to fix the XXI? I see that at flank, the battery is gone in an hour! Also, takes 12 hours+ to recharge??!!

Also, in XXI scenario 1944, was attacked in the middle of the North Sea by Swordfish torp planes!!

VonHelsching · 03-03-06, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_espo

Is there a mod to fix the XXI? I see that at flank, the battery is gone in an hour! Also, takes 12 hours+ to recharge??!!

There is a mod:

Check: http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=47637

or download directly from rapidshare

http://rapidshare.de/files/11577036/...y_Fix.zip.html

If you have problems with rapidshare, in the thread there are more links.

Still trying to check and fine tune the batteries for all subs...

Heibges · 03-03-06, 02:45 PM

Were they all moving at 14kts or was one pinging you while the others attacked?

I thought Allies ability to determine uboat depth accurately greatly improved as the war progressed.

I think most folks think the escorts are undermodeled.

mike_espo · 03-03-06, 04:14 PM

Further test reveal that escorts are very inconsistent! After the escorts left me, I surfaced within 500m of a Buckley DE, he did not even fire at me!

??????

I downloaded the XXI fix. Thanks guys!

the snorkel depth is now 16m but no wake...originally at 14m I got a wake....have not noticed much in improvement in recharge time.... let btty drain to 30% and after 6 hours barely got to 75%... Got attacked by liberators before btty was fully charged....

Was there a change in snorkel radar signature?

VonHelsching · 03-03-06, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_espo

I downloaded the XXI fix. Thanks guys!

the snorkel depth is now 16m but no wake...originally at 14m I got a wake....have not noticed much in improvement in recharge time.... let btty drain to 30% and after 6 hours barely got to 75%... Got attacked by liberators before btty was fully charged....

Was there a change in snorkel radar signature?

Actually the recharge time will be a little worse than before, but now you shouldn't remain @ 99,9% forever. Your battery recharges @ 100% and your starboard engine is used for providing some more knots in the surface.

Regarding the radar signature, the deeper the snorkel depth, the safer. Ath the end of the war (late 1944), the last radar of the Allies was capable of picking objects higher than 3 cm

So, even with snorkel depth @ 16 m, you still have way more than 3 cm...

As for the wake, I havn't touched that. I assume you have the reflections fix, no?

At least the 16m provide you some cover from the previous radar, which picked signatures @ 1m above the surface.

On topic now, all the DDs that were following you were running @ 14 kn.? Or one of them was pinging and the other depth-charged you?

Average Joe · 03-03-06, 07:53 PM

Interesting about the XXi and being picked-up by enemy escorts quite easily.

Last campaign I finally got some time with the XXi (about 4 patrols). It was late-war (1944/45).

I wonder if the sheer size of the IX and XXI series subs (1100/1600-tons) would make it much easier to be detected, no matter how well hidden.

Even in late-war the VIIC sub (760-tons) 'seems' less detectable than the big subs.

Rather like spotting a Mack truck coming at me, rather than a pickup truck. It's kind of hard to miss!

mike_espo · 03-03-06, 11:41 PM

Initially, the escort was alone. I used the external free view, I only saw one escort within 2km. As I was testing the XXI stock SHIII scenario, was not playing 100% and not using the hydrophone.

I was at ahead standard-14kn. The escort was at least 800m + behind me. He not only caught up with me, but was pinging away....and was able to lay a pattern of DCs not hedgehogs...RIGHT on top of me.....

I was plastered!

03-03-06, 11:48 PM

Whats giving you away is the 14Knt racket coming through the hydrophone - you may as well put a big neon sign above you boat saying "Sub here! Sink at leisure."

At that amount of noise they dont even Need the ASDIC!!

I do agree tho that at speed the ASDIC should be off, and you know what, it is. The speed tho is at 15Knts, which is the correct speed that the ASDIC housing is retracted back into the hull. At speed's above 15Knts there was a very good chance that the ASDIC housing would sustain damage, even to the point of being ripped off the hull.

mike_espo · 03-03-06, 11:57 PM

If the escort is moving at 14kn, his hydrophone will also be ineffective. Remember, this is 1944.

No, a single escort would no way be able to prosecute a XXI.

Successfully.

03-04-06, 02:47 AM

Yes Hydrophones will still work at 14Knts, not brilliantly I'll admit, but then with you maken all that noise, they dont have too.

VonHelsching · 03-04-06, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Average Joe

Interesting about the XXi and being picked-up by enemy escorts quite easily.

Last campaign I finally got some time with the XXi (about 4 patrols). It was late-war (1944/45).

I wonder if the sheer size of the IX and XXI series subs (1100/1600-tons) would make it much easier to be detected, no matter how well hidden.

Even in late-war the VIIC sub (760-tons) 'seems' less detectable than the big subs.

Rather like spotting a Mack truck coming at me, rather than a pickup truck. It's kind of hard to miss!

Maybe the XXI is not modelled accurately in SH3. In 1/3 speed going 6 kn it was supposed to be more quiet than any other sub going at 4 knts. Don't remember where I read this, though...

Wulfmann · 03-04-06, 10:23 AM

As one that edited all my escorts to be 3 and 4 crew ratings from the beginning I find that the better equipment on escorts makes them more effective as the war progresses anyway. Such that by mid 1943 if 2 4 rated escorts are on you it is impossible to escape. I have all the mods like AI sensors, sonar etc.
Now I have re-edited all the convoys and hunter killer groups so they only have one 4 rated possible. They are still very deadly late war anyway.
The fact they seem to always drop DCes for the right depth is not right.
In the first couple years the Germans were diving way lower than the DCes and we simply can not do the same thing.
But, how does the game decide what depth for them to explode? What would make them change to another? The only thing happening is out boat so that is their reference.
Still they should at least go off at the depth setting when they are dropped, which they don't.
If you are at 220meters and hear DCes in the water then go to flank and drop to 230 matters, that is where the DCes detonate.
Ironically the DCes can not detonate shallow enough if you are at periscope depth meaning you are safer there than diving deep, unless they have hedge hogs! I actually watched as they sailed right for me and hit the water in front of the bridge. I clicked the control room and one second later all the men vanished, I clicked crew and they were all red.

Wulfmann

Keelbuster · 03-04-06, 01:53 PM

Weird. I'm sure that i've had DCs explode at the wrong depth - like i'll get detected at a depth, dive a bit, and have escorts dropping shallow DCs, and I'll cackle to myself and call them fools.

KB

03-03-06, 11:00 AM	#1
mike_espo Sonar Guy Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chicago, USA Posts: 396 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	Escorts way too effective I played the XXI scenario. Just wanted to test my theory that escorts late war are waaay overmodelled. Dived to 30m went to 14knots. Used the external view to see how escorts reacted.....they still are able to drop DC at my depth no matter if I change or not... Also, even late war, escorts cannot move at 14+knots and listen effectively, let alone use ASDIC... But... Escort is pinging away following me when IM doing 14kn!!! ..in reality, escorts could never do this...even in 1945. Max speed for using ASDIC is 10kn. ASDIC/Sonar even late war still did not have capacity to obtain depth. Why is it modelled so in SHIII????

03-03-06, 02:45 PM	#5
Heibges Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Francisco, California Posts: 1,633 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Were they all moving at 14kts or was one pinging you while the others attacked? I thought Allies ability to determine uboat depth accurately greatly improved as the war progressed. I think most folks think the escorts are undermodeled. __________________ U.Kdt.Hdb B. I. 28) This possibility of using the hydrophone to help in detecting surface ships should, however, be restricted to those cases where the submarine is unavoidably compelled to stay below the surface. http://www.hackworth.com/

03-03-06, 07:53 PM	#8
Average Joe Eternal Patrol Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: U.S. Posts: 202 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Interesting about the XXi and being picked-up by enemy escorts quite easily. Last campaign I finally got some time with the XXi (about 4 patrols). It was late-war (1944/45). I wonder if the sheer size of the IX and XXI series subs (1100/1600-tons) would make it much easier to be detected, no matter how well hidden. Even in late-war the VIIC sub (760-tons) 'seems' less detectable than the big subs. Rather like spotting a Mack truck coming at me, rather than a pickup truck. It's kind of hard to miss! __________________ Avg. Joe

03-04-06, 10:23 AM	#14
Wulfmann Ace of the Deep Join Date: May 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 1,010 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	As one that edited all my escorts to be 3 and 4 crew ratings from the beginning I find that the better equipment on escorts makes them more effective as the war progresses anyway. Such that by mid 1943 if 2 4 rated escorts are on you it is impossible to escape. I have all the mods like AI sensors, sonar etc. Now I have re-edited all the convoys and hunter killer groups so they only have one 4 rated possible. They are still very deadly late war anyway. The fact they seem to always drop DCes for the right depth is not right. In the first couple years the Germans were diving way lower than the DCes and we simply can not do the same thing. But, how does the game decide what depth for them to explode? What would make them change to another? The only thing happening is out boat so that is their reference. Still they should at least go off at the depth setting when they are dropped, which they don't. If you are at 220meters and hear DCes in the water then go to flank and drop to 230 matters, that is where the DCes detonate. Ironically the DCes can not detonate shallow enough if you are at periscope depth meaning you are safer there than diving deep, unless they have hedge hogs! I actually watched as they sailed right for me and hit the water in front of the bridge. I clicked the control room and one second later all the men vanished, I clicked crew and they were all red. Wulfmann __________________ "The right to keep and bear arms should not be infringed upon, if only to prevent tyranny in government" Thomas Jefferson,; Constitutional debates

03-04-06, 01:53 PM	#15
Keelbuster Ace of the Deep Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: BA 72 Posts: 1,092 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	Weird. I'm sure that i've had DCs explode at the wrong depth - like i'll get detected at a depth, dive a bit, and have escorts dropping shallow DCs, and I'll cackle to myself and call them fools. KB __________________

03-03-06, 12:18 PM	#2
Tonnage_Ace XO Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver Posts: 411 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	A lot of things aren't modelled correctly in the game, take the IXD2's range or the fact that the snorkel, when 1m above water is recognised by the game as being as big as a ship. These are just two faults I can think of right now, these as well as a few others can be fixed by mods(infuriating that the mods are simple adjustments that the dev team could have made in a follow-up patch to 1.4b, prolly take a dev. member 5 seconds to correct rather than have the community go through trial and error to find and fix the small problem). I still love the game but only did so after d/ling some definately must-have mods. Hope they take greater care with SHIV

03-03-06, 12:36 PM	#3
mike_espo Sonar Guy Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chicago, USA Posts: 396 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	Is there a mod to fix the XXI? I see that at flank, the battery is gone in an hour! Also, takes 12 hours+ to recharge??!! Also, in XXI scenario 1944, was attacked in the middle of the North Sea by Swordfish torp planes!!

03-03-06, 04:14 PM	#6
mike_espo Sonar Guy Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chicago, USA Posts: 396 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	Further test reveal that escorts are very inconsistent! After the escorts left me, I surfaced within 500m of a Buckley DE, he did not even fire at me! ?????? I downloaded the XXI fix. Thanks guys! the snorkel depth is now 16m but no wake...originally at 14m I got a wake....have not noticed much in improvement in recharge time.... let btty drain to 30% and after 6 hours barely got to 75%... Got attacked by liberators before btty was fully charged.... Was there a change in snorkel radar signature?

03-03-06, 11:41 PM	#9
mike_espo Sonar Guy Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chicago, USA Posts: 396 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	Initially, the escort was alone. I used the external free view, I only saw one escort within 2km. As I was testing the XXI stock SHIII scenario, was not playing 100% and not using the hydrophone. I was at ahead standard-14kn. The escort was at least 800m + behind me. He not only caught up with me, but was pinging away....and was able to lay a pattern of DCs not hedgehogs...RIGHT on top of me..... I was plastered!

03-03-06, 11:48 PM	#10
Cdre Gibs Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Whats giving you away is the 14Knt racket coming through the hydrophone - you may as well put a big neon sign above you boat saying "Sub here! Sink at leisure." At that amount of noise they dont even Need the ASDIC!! I do agree tho that at speed the ASDIC should be off, and you know what, it is. The speed tho is at 15Knts, which is the correct speed that the ASDIC housing is retracted back into the hull. At speed's above 15Knts there was a very good chance that the ASDIC housing would sustain damage, even to the point of being ripped off the hull.

03-03-06, 11:57 PM	#11
mike_espo Sonar Guy Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chicago, USA Posts: 396 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	If the escort is moving at 14kn, his hydrophone will also be ineffective. Remember, this is 1944. No, a single escort would no way be able to prosecute a XXI. Successfully.

03-04-06, 02:47 AM	#12
Cdre Gibs Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Yes Hydrophones will still work at 14Knts, not brilliantly I'll admit, but then with you maken all that noise, they dont have too.