Type XXI. Do you know that...

msxyz · 07-28-05, 07:10 AM

A Type XXI with its standard battery comprised of 372 elements, lead-acid accumulators weighting 620Kg each could travel for about 400Nm underwater at 5Kts

The heavvy duty batteries of the day could hold about 35Wh/Kg of energy. Modern Lead acid accumulators nearly double that figure with 60Wh/Kg for long discharges.

A type XXI equipped with modern Varta-Hagen batteries designed for submarines would be able to travel for 700Nm at 5 Kts.

If we decide to use more effective accumulators like Silver-Zinc or Silver-Iron (employed by some russian subs but very expensive) the total underwater range of the XXI might be extended to some 1200 (!) Nm at 5Kt. That means 10 days underwater. Naturally we would have to install some air recycler apparatus as the air onboard a type XXI lasts only for 48 hrs.

Just for comparison, a modern fuel cell or AIP submarine like the Gotland, U-214 or Agosta 90B can travel for about 1500Nm before having to resurface. And since the AIP system needs special fuel, once the stores are exhausted its underwater range is much lower, about 300Nm

Would the XXI still be a kickass submarine ?. Probably not. Too much noisy with its conventional design propellers. A damn fine design for its time and for the following 20 years, though.

SeaSlug_U999 · 07-28-05, 07:37 AM

I concurr.

PS: I've extended a bit the batt life on my XXI, just fot the fun of it. I can do now 650Nm at 6kts (4 days). I snorkes sometimes (briefly) for O2 each day. On the 5th i recharge them (takes 20hs)

msxyz · 07-28-05, 08:00 AM

Too bad, sh3 has recharge rates and underwater oxygen endurance wrong for the type XXI

Nightowl · 07-31-05, 06:03 AM

BUMP.... I'm interested in hearing more regarding the Type XXI

Fritz · 07-31-05, 06:45 AM

the XXI is considdered by both western and eastern experts as the "Grandfather" of all modern subs, as it's design was so far fetched that it litterary scared the **** out of the allied command.

the sub was litterary invissible to allied underwater hearing equipment.

the allies didnt know about it's exelent submerged speed until long after germanys surrender, they thought that the bullet shaped design had a mere 1-2 kts advantage over the old design, thinking that german industry, was smashed form the prolonged aircampaings.

as i see it, the XXI's only down side is no main gun, and no rear firing torpedo tube so u need to eighter lay and wait for target to pass infront, OR turn the sub completly around.

07-31-05, 08:57 AM

In late 1944 they were planning two variants ("type XXI B" and "XXI C"). The first variation forsaw another six torpedo tubes to the bow, but aiming aft down the side of the sub, 3 per side. In the second variation the number of torpedo tubes increase to 18 tubes (six to launch forward, twelve to launch aft, 6 per side). In both variations the Flack Guns were upgraded to 37mm and the maximum length of the boat was 83 meters long.

Nopileo · 07-31-05, 10:39 AM

Wow, 12 rear-firing tubes?!

That sub would have been great in a convoy. Just keep ahead of the convoy and fire until all ships were gone...

Interesting stuff guys. Keep it coming!

Duli · 07-31-05, 12:00 PM

Very interesting, that thing about the XXI B and C model.

kholemann · 08-11-05, 09:03 AM

I have the technical drawings, would y'all like to see scans of them subs? I got the book when I visited the U505 back in 1980 and it had the technical drawings in them, a very small book.

Duli · 08-11-05, 10:58 AM

Yes, I would like to see them.

Kernel · 08-11-05, 01:13 PM

Yes Please do.

Zie Chuckinator · 08-11-05, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msxyz

A Type XXI with its standard battery comprised of 372 elements, lead-acid accumulators weighting 620Kg each could travel for about 400Nm underwater at 5Kts

The heavvy duty batteries of the day could hold about 35Wh/Kg of energy. Modern Lead acid accumulators nearly double that figure with 60Wh/Kg for long discharges.

A type XXI equipped with modern Varta-Hagen batteries designed for submarines would be able to travel for 700Nm at 5 Kts.

If we decide to use more effective accumulators like Silver-Zinc or Silver-Iron (employed by some russian subs but very expensive) the total underwater range of the XXI might be extended to some 1200 (!) Nm at 5Kt. That means 10 days underwater. Naturally we would have to install some air recycler apparatus as the air onboard a type XXI lasts only for 48 hrs.

Just for comparison, a modern fuel cell or AIP submarine like the Gotland, U-214 or Agosta 90B can travel for about 1500Nm before having to resurface. And since the AIP system needs special fuel, once the stores are exhausted its underwater range is much lower, about 300Nm

Would the XXI still be a kickass submarine ?. Probably not. Too much noisy with its conventional design propellers. A damn fine design for its time and for the following 20 years, though.

where did u get all that?

AtaruGolan · 02-11-06, 10:44 PM

I wait for new xxi

Hellcat · 02-11-06, 11:13 PM

hmmmm looking at the appendix in Rossler's "The U-Boat" the Type XXIC was designed with 6 forward tubes, with 12 side tubes... looking at the drawings they are placed ahead of the conning tower angled off the centerline facing aft in two rows of 3 tubes. (6 on each side) However according to the book it seems that there was no room for reloads.

The Type XXIB carried no reloads either, in it's case it only carried 12 shots. (6 in the forward tubes and 6 in the side tubes)

msxyz, I'm curious what your source of data is concerning range, from what I've read in several books that the type XXI submerged range is just shy of 300 miles at optimum speed.

P_Funk · 02-12-06, 05:51 AM

I think that the type XXI is just a solid, well thought out design which hasn't been outdated just in its basic shape. How much German technology is still noticeable today? V2 rockets became the basis for the American Nasa program, XXI was "grandfather" for all modern subs, first functioning jet fighter craft created by Nazi germany, even the late developed Stg-44 was basically the prototype design for what would be the AK-47 (even looks the same:http://world.guns.ru/assault/as51-e.htm). German scientists were ahead of their time. Some technology won't become truly obsolete until the next technology revolution.

07-28-05, 07:10 AM	#1
msxyz Engineer Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 218 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Type XXI. Do you know that... A Type XXI with its standard battery comprised of 372 elements, lead-acid accumulators weighting 620Kg each could travel for about 400Nm underwater at 5Kts The heavvy duty batteries of the day could hold about 35Wh/Kg of energy. Modern Lead acid accumulators nearly double that figure with 60Wh/Kg for long discharges. A type XXI equipped with modern Varta-Hagen batteries designed for submarines would be able to travel for 700Nm at 5 Kts. If we decide to use more effective accumulators like Silver-Zinc or Silver-Iron (employed by some russian subs but very expensive) the total underwater range of the XXI might be extended to some 1200 (!) Nm at 5Kt. That means 10 days underwater. Naturally we would have to install some air recycler apparatus as the air onboard a type XXI lasts only for 48 hrs. Just for comparison, a modern fuel cell or AIP submarine like the Gotland, U-214 or Agosta 90B can travel for about 1500Nm before having to resurface. And since the AIP system needs special fuel, once the stores are exhausted its underwater range is much lower, about 300Nm Would the XXI still be a kickass submarine ?. Probably not. Too much noisy with its conventional design propellers. A damn fine design for its time and for the following 20 years, though. __________________ ...Sinking deeper into the cold, dark oceans of life

07-28-05, 07:37 AM	#2
SeaSlug_U999 Seaman Join Date: May 2005 Location: Cardiff, Wales, UK Posts: 35 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I concurr. PS: I've extended a bit the batt life on my XXI, just fot the fun of it. I can do now 650Nm at 6kts (4 days). I snorkes sometimes (briefly) for O2 each day. On the 5th i recharge them (takes 20hs) __________________ <<... No cap\'n, sir, the attack scope can\'t go beyond 6x magnification, so could we lower the scope and continue the mission? The Playboy photo session is almost over on that boat we\'ve been trailing for almost 3 hours>>

07-28-05, 08:00 AM	#3
msxyz Engineer Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 218 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Too bad, sh3 has recharge rates and underwater oxygen endurance wrong for the type XXI __________________ ...Sinking deeper into the cold, dark oceans of life

07-31-05, 12:00 PM	#8
Duli Planesman Join Date: May 2005 Location: Novo mesto, Slovenia Posts: 198 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Very interesting, that thing about the XXI B and C model. __________________

08-11-05, 10:58 AM	#10
Duli Planesman Join Date: May 2005 Location: Novo mesto, Slovenia Posts: 198 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Yes, I would like to see them. __________________

07-31-05, 06:03 AM	#4
Nightowl Mate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bushnell, FL Posts: 60 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	BUMP.... I'm interested in hearing more regarding the Type XXI

07-31-05, 06:45 AM	#5
Fritz Watch Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 22 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	the XXI is considdered by both western and eastern experts as the "Grandfather" of all modern subs, as it's design was so far fetched that it litterary scared the **** out of the allied command. the sub was litterary invissible to allied underwater hearing equipment. the allies didnt know about it's exelent submerged speed until long after germanys surrender, they thought that the bullet shaped design had a mere 1-2 kts advantage over the old design, thinking that german industry, was smashed form the prolonged aircampaings. as i see it, the XXI's only down side is no main gun, and no rear firing torpedo tube so u need to eighter lay and wait for target to pass infront, OR turn the sub completly around.

07-31-05, 08:57 AM	#6
Cdre Gibs Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	In late 1944 they were planning two variants ("type XXI B" and "XXI C"). The first variation forsaw another six torpedo tubes to the bow, but aiming aft down the side of the sub, 3 per side. In the second variation the number of torpedo tubes increase to 18 tubes (six to launch forward, twelve to launch aft, 6 per side). In both variations the Flack Guns were upgraded to 37mm and the maximum length of the boat was 83 meters long.

07-31-05, 10:39 AM	#7
Nopileo Watch Officer Join Date: May 2005 Location: Norway Posts: 333 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Wow, 12 rear-firing tubes?! That sub would have been great in a convoy. Just keep ahead of the convoy and fire until all ships were gone... Interesting stuff guys. Keep it coming!

08-11-05, 09:03 AM	#9
kholemann Gunner Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 98 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	I have the technical drawings, would y'all like to see scans of them subs? I got the book when I visited the U505 back in 1980 and it had the technical drawings in them, a very small book.

08-11-05, 01:13 PM	#11
Kernel Watch Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 24 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Yes Please do.

02-11-06, 10:44 PM	#13
AtaruGolan Watch Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 25 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	I wait for new xxi

02-11-06, 11:13 PM	#14
Hellcat Ensign Join Date: May 2004 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 224 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	hmmmm looking at the appendix in Rossler's "The U-Boat" the Type XXIC was designed with 6 forward tubes, with 12 side tubes... looking at the drawings they are placed ahead of the conning tower angled off the centerline facing aft in two rows of 3 tubes. (6 on each side) However according to the book it seems that there was no room for reloads. The Type XXIB carried no reloads either, in it's case it only carried 12 shots. (6 in the forward tubes and 6 in the side tubes) msxyz, I'm curious what your source of data is concerning range, from what I've read in several books that the type XXI submerged range is just shy of 300 miles at optimum speed. __________________ "readiness is only accomplished when the need for it is over"

02-12-06, 05:51 AM	#15
P_Funk Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 2,537 Downloads: 129 Uploads: 0	I think that the type XXI is just a solid, well thought out design which hasn't been outdated just in its basic shape. How much German technology is still noticeable today? V2 rockets became the basis for the American Nasa program, XXI was "grandfather" for all modern subs, first functioning jet fighter craft created by Nazi germany, even the late developed Stg-44 was basically the prototype design for what would be the AK-47 (even looks the same:http://world.guns.ru/assault/as51-e.htm). German scientists were ahead of their time. Some technology won't become truly obsolete until the next technology revolution. __________________