Circle v Snake Search?

SeaQueen · 03-11-06, 07:41 AM

Do you guys have a preference?

Do you use different search patterns for different situations?

What is the best way to use them?

I've noticed that the AI seems to prefer snake search over circle search, with the range to target under-estimated. I wonder if they do this on purpose or not. I actually makes evasion easier, though. People complain about the computer's TMA being too good, but this leads me to doubt it.

For snapshots I always use snake search (DUH!) :-)

Dr.Sid · 03-11-06, 07:44 AM

1.03 auto TMA seems to make more mistakes in range that it did before. Circle can give better results then. In sub I mostly use snake + wires.
With cirlce without wires, now well torpedoes detection range. You don't want to evade your own torpedoes.

OneShot · 03-11-06, 08:31 AM

Depends on the situation. When I fly the Orion I usually have a torp ready to drop in Circle mode right from the start, in case somebody shoots at me and I actually am fast enough to drop the torp as a going away farewell. Aside from that I try to aim mostly for getting to know my quarry and then drop a Snake in front or from behind, tho sometimes I switch to using a circle when I'm pretty sure on location but not so sure on course.

As a Helo I have a Circle ready to drop again as a last ditch and to drop when I get a MAD. If I have a bit more time I try to set up a good launch and use Snake ...

Bottom line : it hugely depends on the situation! Do I prefer one? Nope, but there are situations calling for the one or the other ...

sonar732 · 03-11-06, 11:55 AM

I agree...if you are in an air platform and coming from behind the contact, use a snake pattern and shove the torp up his behind.

If you're not sure of the exact position, use a circle. Same applies to subs if the contact is far away.

Dr.Sid · 03-11-06, 12:17 PM

Actually it is much better to drop torpedoes in front of the target .. they can't evade that easily and CM wont help much.

SeaQueen · 03-11-06, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Actually it is much better to drop torpedoes in front of the target .. they can't evade that easily and CM wont help much.

Ooo... that's another good question, how do you guys take into account evasion?

OneShot · 03-11-06, 01:49 PM

Dropping them in front is certainly preferable to giving chase ... however sometimes you can't because you don't have the time, or whatever so you have to go for the less favourable solution.

The best way to make evasive action useless is to practically drop right on top of him, the torp enters the water, starts pinging and a second later you hear the loud and satisfying BOOM when the torp hits the sub. Good but sometimes hard to do alternative is drop the torp in front, but you need very good location and course information as well as some luck for that to work out right. Good skippers can and will escape those torps as well, if you do it wrong or (and thats a big danger) simply overshoot the target and drop the torp behind him, in which case you just wasted a perfectly good torp for ... nothin, maybe even endangered another (civilian) ship.

SeaQueen · 03-11-06, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneShot

Dropping them in front is certainly preferable to giving chase ... however sometimes you can't because you don't have the time, or whatever so you have to go for the less favourable solution.

This surprises me because it seems like submarines traveling at a reasonable evasion speed can change course fairly quickly. Combine that the area of uncertainty and it seems unlikely that the single shot Pk of your torpedo would be effected.

Quote:

The best way to make evasive action useless is to practically drop right on top of him, the torp enters the water, starts pinging and a second later you hear the loud and satisfying BOOM when the torp hits the sub.

This makes more sense to me, because a smart sub captain is going to change course as soon as he hears the torpedo in the water, so even if you dropped where you thought was in front, by the time it acquires its target, it may be in a side-on or tail chase.

I think the most important thing is to drop the torpedo as close to the submarine as possible.

Kapitan · 03-11-06, 06:45 PM

Snake search for me in the circle it well just circles around and if the target is out side the cone then it doesnt go find, thats what ive found.

SeaQueen · 03-11-06, 06:51 PM

I'm surprised that sub people haven't responded so far. There's a lot more nuance to the TMA there than there is in airborne platforms.

Something I've noticed about the AI, is that it seems to heavily favor snake searches. I've never seen an AI sub shoot a circle search torpedo. It's like it only ever shoots down a line of bearing, and it usually activates too early. After I realized what it was doing, AI torpedos were easy to evade because they were firing while the area of uncertainty surrounding me was too big. It seems to rely on the idea that if it just shoots enough torpedos at me, eventually one is bound to hit.

Kapitan · 03-11-06, 07:00 PM

Ahem the akula is a sub isnt it?

I DRIVE IT

OneShot · 03-11-06, 07:25 PM

If you drop Head-On then the sub is initially between the torp and the CM, so the sub captain has to start evasive maneuvers and actually turn his boat around or at least as far as possible before he can even attempt to successfully use a CM, which in turn gives the torp a lot more time to close in and kill without the sub skipper being able to do anything against it except maneuvering. If you drop behind him, he can launch a CM and start maneuvering with a good chance of evasion unless the torp was right on the money.

Thats why a Head-On shot is favourable ... but as I said earlier, to make it work you need good timing and pretty good situational awarness ... aka know where your prey is and will be when you drop.

Sonoboy · 03-11-06, 07:48 PM

I use snake search when I'm in my sub, and circle search when I'm in my helimacopter.

When I find my target in the MH-60R, If I was doing a MAD run and detected it, I would immediately drop a circle search torpedo. If I have a positive classification on an enemy sub, I will close to just outside its SAM range and drop a circle search torpedo that will enable close to his position.

GunnersMate · 03-11-06, 07:55 PM

I set Circle w/ 0 RTE when in P-3 and just drop it on top of the sucker.

I waffle between circle and snake in helo depending on target location neutral shipping etc. In subs & FFG i set snake about 95% of the time

SeaQueen · 03-11-06, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapitain

Ahem the akula is a sub isnt it?

I DRIVE IT

Fair enough, I stand corrected.

03-11-06, 07:41 AM	#1
SeaQueen Naval Royalty Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,185 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Circle v Snake Search? Do you guys have a preference? Do you use different search patterns for different situations? What is the best way to use them? I've noticed that the AI seems to prefer snake search over circle search, with the range to target under-estimated. I wonder if they do this on purpose or not. I actually makes evasion easier, though. People complain about the computer's TMA being too good, but this leads me to doubt it. For snapshots I always use snake search (DUH!) :-)

03-11-06, 08:31 AM	#3
OneShot Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 956 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Depends on the situation. When I fly the Orion I usually have a torp ready to drop in Circle mode right from the start, in case somebody shoots at me and I actually am fast enough to drop the torp as a going away farewell. Aside from that I try to aim mostly for getting to know my quarry and then drop a Snake in front or from behind, tho sometimes I switch to using a circle when I'm pretty sure on location but not so sure on course. As a Helo I have a Circle ready to drop again as a last ditch and to drop when I get a MAD. If I have a bit more time I try to set up a good launch and use Snake ... Bottom line : it hugely depends on the situation! Do I prefer one? Nope, but there are situations calling for the one or the other ... __________________ All the things you always wanted to know about Dangerous Waters but never dared to ask!

03-11-06, 01:49 PM	#7
OneShot Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 956 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Dropping them in front is certainly preferable to giving chase ... however sometimes you can't because you don't have the time, or whatever so you have to go for the less favourable solution. The best way to make evasive action useless is to practically drop right on top of him, the torp enters the water, starts pinging and a second later you hear the loud and satisfying BOOM when the torp hits the sub. Good but sometimes hard to do alternative is drop the torp in front, but you need very good location and course information as well as some luck for that to work out right. Good skippers can and will escape those torps as well, if you do it wrong or (and thats a big danger) simply overshoot the target and drop the torp behind him, in which case you just wasted a perfectly good torp for ... nothin, maybe even endangered another (civilian) ship. __________________ All the things you always wanted to know about Dangerous Waters but never dared to ask!

03-11-06, 06:45 PM	#9
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	Snake search for me in the circle it well just circles around and if the target is out side the cone then it doesnt go find, thats what ive found. __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

03-11-06, 07:00 PM	#11
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	Ahem the akula is a sub isnt it? I DRIVE IT __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

03-11-06, 07:44 AM	#2
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	1.03 auto TMA seems to make more mistakes in range that it did before. Circle can give better results then. In sub I mostly use snake + wires. With cirlce without wires, now well torpedoes detection range. You don't want to evade your own torpedoes.

03-11-06, 11:55 AM	#4
sonar732 The Old Man Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Central MO Posts: 1,562 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	I agree...if you are in an air platform and coming from behind the contact, use a snake pattern and shove the torp up his behind. If you're not sure of the *exact* position, use a circle. Same applies to subs if the contact is far away.

03-11-06, 12:17 PM	#5
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Actually it is much better to drop torpedoes in front of the target .. they can't evade that easily and CM wont help much.

03-11-06, 06:51 PM	#10
SeaQueen Naval Royalty Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,185 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I'm surprised that sub people haven't responded so far. There's a lot more nuance to the TMA there than there is in airborne platforms. Something I've noticed about the AI, is that it seems to heavily favor snake searches. I've never seen an AI sub shoot a circle search torpedo. It's like it only ever shoots down a line of bearing, and it usually activates too early. After I realized what it was doing, AI torpedos were easy to evade because they were firing while the area of uncertainty surrounding me was too big. It seems to rely on the idea that if it just shoots enough torpedos at me, eventually one is bound to hit.

03-11-06, 07:25 PM	#12
OneShot Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 956 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	If you drop Head-On then the sub is initially between the torp and the CM, so the sub captain has to start evasive maneuvers and actually turn his boat around or at least as far as possible before he can even attempt to successfully use a CM, which in turn gives the torp a lot more time to close in and kill without the sub skipper being able to do anything against it except maneuvering. If you drop behind him, he can launch a CM and start maneuvering with a good chance of evasion unless the torp was right on the money. Thats why a Head-On shot is favourable ... but as I said earlier, to make it work you need good timing and pretty good situational awarness ... aka know where your prey is and will be when you drop. __________________ All the things you always wanted to know about Dangerous Waters but never dared to ask!

03-11-06, 07:48 PM	#13
Sonoboy Planesman Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: United States, CA Posts: 195 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	I use snake search when I'm in my sub, and circle search when I'm in my helimacopter. When I find my target in the MH-60R, If I was doing a MAD run and detected it, I would immediately drop a circle search torpedo. If I have a positive classification on an enemy sub, I will close to just outside its SAM range and drop a circle search torpedo that will enable close to his position.

03-11-06, 07:55 PM	#14
GunnersMate Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USS Sea Tiger Posts: 251 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	I set Circle w/ 0 RTE when in P-3 and just drop it on top of the sucker. I waffle between circle and snake in helo depending on target location neutral shipping etc. In subs & FFG i set snake about 95% of the time __________________ \"Sir they just fired an Exocet at us!\" \"Very well, Bosn pipe Sweepers\" I\'m having trouble with the radar, sir. What\'s wrong with it? I\'ve lost the bleeps, I\'ve lost the sweeps, and I\'ve lost the creeps.