What about an ALL-IN-ONE "SH 3 TOOL"?

rulle34 · 10-31-05, 02:57 PM

Hello!
This is a thought that came from the tread about the atmospheric mod.
What do I mean by that? Well, now some mods have reach a level where one single file contains several modifications. This is of course good, but it also come with wishes and requests for several versions of the mod. Some people want bigger waves, som more murky water etc..etc This list can be done VERY long if we see to all the mods that has been done. ( I will not example the deck gun diusussion here :rotfl: )

I know there is some VERY good SH 3 tools out there. But what I want is one SH 3 TOOL that has all this features built in, and of course more
I know JScones, Timetraveller, Wolfie'Den and more have the capability to Join and provide us with one TOOL that can do all of this. This will allow for more "clean" mods and then change to a personal setting with this tool.

As I can see there is a difference in grafic tools and tools for functionality. But let's not have any limits for now.

First, is this a good idea?
Second, Is this possible to do if you "professionals" join in lets call it "ONE-IN ALL-SH 3-TOOL"?
Third, what do you want this tool do do?

Lets see what this can lead to.

Kpt. Lehmann · 10-31-05, 04:16 PM

Good idea!

I wonder if this is something that might be considered for SH3 Cmdr. Maybe Jaeson will share some thoughts on this.

It sounds like a bit of work... but is something that in many ways is becoming more and more necessary.

Potentially, it could make the work of modding some elements of the game less "labor-intensive" and in the end lighten the load of modders we have grown to depend on.

We have already lost Jasonb885... the builder or the "Improved Convoys" mod.

Marhkimov · 10-31-05, 05:23 PM

These are SH3 files that have been known to induce a lot of incompatibility problems. Some of these files are already partly accessable to the general public, but not all of them. With this ALL-IN-ONE-TOOL, we should ideally be able to have easy read-and-write access to all of these files:

scene.dat (murkiness is accessable by SH3Cmdr, waves are accessable by timetravellers inspector tool)
sensors.dat
AI_sensors.dat
guns.sim or guns.dat (reload time accessable by SH3Cmdr)
DepthCharges.dat (accessable by timetravellers inspector tool)
shells.dat or shells.sim
EnvColors_*.dat (accessable by timetraveller's color inspector tool)
SkyColors_*.dat
Air/Sea/Submarine/Objects*.dat's (accessable by timetravellers inspector tool)
menu_1024_768.ini

Did I miss anything???

I hope there is someone out there who will go through the trouble of making such a program. It won't be easy, as timetraveller can attest, but it would certainly be a super boost to the modding community.

rulle34 · 10-31-05, 05:38 PM

What about all different versions of Basic.cfg
Then there is Main.cfg
These are not hex edit files, but lots of versions are connected with these files.
I know TweekSH3.exe and TweekSUB.exe by Wolfie's Den put some changes into this files.
By the way, where is he nowadays?

Marhkimov · 10-31-05, 05:44 PM

Personally, I would not put too much stress on making basic.cfg more accessable, because it can already be changed with a simple text editor (notepad, wordpad, etc.). Of course, it would be a lot simpler if someone made a streamlined program that would take away the hassle, but it isn't as neccessary.

On the other hand, someone like me (very basic modder, with no hex editing or 3d modelling abillity) cannot get in and alter dat or sim files... I believe this would be higher priority...

timetraveller · 10-31-05, 05:45 PM

It's very possible to do (for most values), but to develop a graphical interface for each value wanting to mod would be very, very time consuming. Each value mod has to be custom written.

I realized the work involved after writing SH3 Inspector, which only does a small part in game mods. My solution was to write SH3 File Analyzer. With it you can write a rule defining the layout for any SH3 game file and modify *almost* anything in such file if you can pinpoint the value using the rule. Rules are not easy to write, but I have written a document which describes the basics if you want to give it a go. I've written many rules already which cover most of the files you listed. It's a bit techy of a program, but it saved me 100s of hours of coding, which is what it would have taken to write more programs like SH3 Inspector.

http://www.delraydepot.com/tt/sh3sdk.htm

Hope this helps.

TT

rulle34 · 10-31-05, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marhkimov

On the other hand, someone like me (very basic modder, with no hex editing or 3d modelling abillity) cannot get in and alter dat or sim files... I believe this would be higher priority...

This I fully agree with, but the program already exists, so why not add it in? But I agree with priority should be files needed for hexediting.

Marhkimov · 10-31-05, 05:52 PM

WHA?! TIMETRAVELLER SPEAKS!!!

Yeah, I was just going to go and test out your analyzer too. I haven't seen what it can do yet...

Looks a little tech-y, but I'm sure with a little time (and your tutorials/notes) I'll be able to figure it out...

BTW, great job on all of these tools, TT. Without you, I would not have been able to mod anything -- seriously. You can't imagine how much you have contributed... not only to me, but to the ENTIRE COMMUNITY!

THANKS!

rulle34 · 10-31-05, 06:01 PM

Hello Timetraveller. :P Nice to see you back. And in just the right time too. I will absolutely look in to your tips.
I also fully agree to what markhimov says.
Hope you can stay tuned into this, cos we really need your help in this.

You know all about this and Im just a newbie with lots of thoughts and wishes.

JScones · 10-31-05, 10:12 PM

An all-in-one SH3 Tool sounds great in theory, but who would it be aimed at? The average player, or the modding faithful? If the modding faithful, then TT has a brilliant tool already. However, understandably, average players just wouldn't have the time for it.

Looking at Basic.cfg for example, it's not publicised, but anyone who has looked at some of SH3Cmdr's cfg files would have realised by now that they can build a whole Basic.cfg file on the fly (even more obvious with the next release

). This is something I am moving towards. The next logical progression (and you can see this evolving with SH3Cmdr's Options) is to provide an interface where users can simply select the name of the mod they want and the interface builds the required (text and binary) files for them - it would recognise when two selected mods changed the same values and would alert the user or look for pre-defined rules for handling. Kinda like an SH3 specific JSGME. To this end, a database would need to be created and maintained storing mod names and the files/settings that go with it. Creating a database isn't hard - heck, it's what I do for a living - but the maintenance part will be where it falls down plus it all takes time to do. Unfortunately for me, SH3Cmdr has opened up so many opportunities that prioritising them all has become quite overwhelming.

Another alternative is a "cut-down" Analyzer. Mod makers create an "Analyzer Lite" rule file which they distribute with their mods. The rule file includes the names, settings and details of files that the mod changes. Players would open this rule file in Analyzer Lite and by querying the contents, Analyzer Lite would present a list of (user friendly) options that the user can change. So, using the Atmosphere mod for example, only one version of scene.dat (if any) would need to be included with one "rule" file. This rule file will outline what settings in what related files can be changed. The player sees a user friendly interface listing each of the mod files and the settings they can adjust (ie in this case water density, wave height etc). Very high level idea which would require much more thought, but very do-able.

Or, even simpler still, a "Lite Analyzer Lite" where users simply get a screen for each of the key SH3 binary files and they can set what values they want through the pre-defined interface. Mods affecting these files can include an instruction sheet saying "Go into Lite Analyzer Lite and change these settings...make sure these other settings are...and don't change these settings...etc" or again, a rule file could be loaded.

I have quite a few other ideas varying between simple and exotic (this is something I have been thinking about for six months), but these are some to start thinking about.

BTW TT's Analyzer tool was invaluable in pointing me to the right spots in scene.dat and GUNS_SUB.sim.

Kpt. Lehmann · 10-31-05, 11:22 PM

Wow Jaeson... I hope you continue with this. I love the feeling of it and it seems you are throwing the doors open to changes that previously were only accessible by a select few.

That is true community spirit. All Ahead Flank!

Reece · 11-01-05, 01:31 AM

This, would be a great Idea,

but what a job!

Still I thought I'd better mention an inportant file Marhkimov, can add to the list "menu_1024_768.ini", have had to update this many times.
Good Luck!

Marhkimov · 11-01-05, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reece

This, would be a great Idea,

but what a job!

Still I thought I'd better mention an inportant file Marhkimov, can add to the list "menu_1024_768.ini", have had to update this many times.
Good Luck!

Definately, menu_1024_768.ini... How could I have forgotten that file. Good catch!

JScones · 11-01-05, 02:27 AM

What TT said is 100% correct - developing an interface would be very, very time consuming. To this end the "Lite Analyzer Lite" approach is prolly the most likely to be implemented, unless there are people here who can commit to such a project pretty much full time (I can't).

Fortunately, TT has done all the hard work insofar as analysing the most important binary files. A compromise could be that someone creates a list of the typical values changed and they could be built into an interface first. My mind is picturing an interface similar to SH3Cmdr, but instead of career names on the left, there are categories such as "Fog", "Water", "Sky", "Weather", "Guns", "Torpedoes", etc etc...

Such a tool would *never* be as dynamic as File Analyzer, but it would perhaps be more accessible to non-techo mainstream players that just want "Clear water", "bigger waves" or "quicker guns". Again, it depends on the target audience. If the audience is modders, then all you need is File Analyzer and building anything else would be a waste of time.

Anyway, that's my 2c worth. Sorry for hogging the topic. I'll happily sit back now and see what others have to say. I'll provide whatever assistance I can if anyone else wants to have a go...

Marhkimov · 11-01-05, 02:35 AM

Don't worry about me. I think I'm just going to jump into file analyzer to see what I can learn.

10-31-05, 02:57 PM	#1
rulle34 Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 835 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	What about an ALL-IN-ONE "SH 3 TOOL"? Hello! This is a thought that came from the tread about the atmospheric mod. What do I mean by that? Well, now some mods have reach a level where one single file contains several modifications. This is of course good, but it also come with wishes and requests for several versions of the mod. Some people want bigger waves, som more murky water etc..etc This list can be done VERY long if we see to all the mods that has been done. ( I will not example the deck gun diusussion here :rotfl: ) I know there is some VERY good SH 3 tools out there. But what I want is one SH 3 TOOL that has all this features built in, and of course more I know JScones, Timetraveller, Wolfie'Den and more have the capability to Join and provide us with one TOOL that can do all of this. This will allow for more "clean" mods and then change to a personal setting with this tool. As I can see there is a difference in grafic tools and tools for functionality. But let's not have any limits for now. First, is this a good idea? Second, Is this possible to do if you "professionals" join in lets call it "ONE-IN ALL-SH 3-TOOL"? Third, what do you want this tool do do? Lets see what this can lead to. __________________

10-31-05, 04:16 PM	#2
Kpt. Lehmann GWX Project Director Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 6,992 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	Good idea! I wonder if this is something that might be considered for SH3 Cmdr. Maybe Jaeson will share some thoughts on this. It sounds like a bit of work... but is something that in many ways is becoming more and more necessary. Potentially, it could make the work of modding some elements of the game less "labor-intensive" and in the end lighten the load of modders we have grown to depend on. We have already lost Jasonb885... the builder or the "Improved Convoys" mod. __________________ www.thegreywolves.com All you need is good men. - Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock

10-31-05, 05:23 PM	#3
Marhkimov Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bay Area, California, USA Posts: 2,377 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	These are SH3 files that have been known to induce a lot of incompatibility problems. Some of these files are already partly accessable to the general public, but not all of them. With this ALL-IN-ONE-TOOL, we should ideally be able to have easy read-and-write access to all of these files: scene.dat (murkiness is accessable by SH3Cmdr, waves are accessable by timetravellers inspector tool) sensors.dat AI_sensors.dat guns.sim or guns.dat (reload time accessable by SH3Cmdr) DepthCharges.dat (accessable by timetravellers inspector tool) shells.dat or shells.sim *EnvColors_.dat (accessable by timetraveller's color inspector tool) SkyColors_.dat* *Air/Sea/Submarine/Objects.dat's (accessable by timetravellers inspector tool) menu_1024_768.ini** Did I miss anything??? I hope there is someone out there who will go through the trouble of making such a program. It won't be easy, as timetraveller can attest, but it would certainly be a super boost to the modding community. __________________ It takes two to tango

10-31-05, 05:38 PM	#4
rulle34 Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 835 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	What about all different versions of Basic.cfg Then there is Main.cfg These are not hex edit files, but lots of versions are connected with these files. I know TweekSH3.exe and TweekSUB.exe by Wolfie's Den put some changes into this files. By the way, where is he nowadays? __________________

10-31-05, 05:44 PM	#5
Marhkimov Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bay Area, California, USA Posts: 2,377 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Personally, I would not put too much stress on making basic.cfg more accessable, because it can already be changed with a simple text editor (notepad, wordpad, etc.). Of course, it would be a lot simpler if someone made a streamlined program that would take away the hassle, but it isn't as neccessary. On the other hand, someone like me (very basic modder, with no hex editing or 3d modelling abillity) cannot get in and alter dat or sim files... I believe this would be higher priority... __________________ It takes two to tango

10-31-05, 05:45 PM	#6
timetraveller Beach Leaf Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Atlantic Shipping Lanes Posts: 287 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	It's very possible to do (for most values), but to develop a graphical interface for each value wanting to mod would be very, very time consuming. Each value mod has to be custom written. I realized the work involved after writing SH3 Inspector, which only does a small part in game mods. My solution was to write SH3 File Analyzer. With it you can write a rule defining the layout for any SH3 game file and modify almost anything in such file if you can pinpoint the value using the rule. Rules are not easy to write, but I have written a document which describes the basics if you want to give it a go. I've written many rules already which cover most of the files you listed. It's a bit techy of a program, but it saved me 100s of hours of coding, which is what it would have taken to write more programs like SH3 Inspector. http://www.delraydepot.com/tt/sh3sdk.htm Hope this helps. TT

10-31-05, 05:52 PM	#8
Marhkimov Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bay Area, California, USA Posts: 2,377 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	WHA?! TIMETRAVELLER SPEAKS!!! Yeah, I was just going to go and test out your analyzer too. I haven't seen what it can do yet... Looks a little tech-y, but I'm sure with a little time (and your tutorials/notes) I'll be able to figure it out... BTW, great job on all of these tools, TT. Without you, I would not have been able to mod anything -- seriously. You can't imagine how much you have contributed... not only to me, but to the ENTIRE COMMUNITY! THANKS! __________________ It takes two to tango

10-31-05, 06:01 PM	#9
rulle34 Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 835 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Hello Timetraveller. :P Nice to see you back. And in just the right time too. I will absolutely look in to your tips. I also fully agree to what markhimov says. Hope you can stay tuned into this, cos we really need your help in this. You know all about this and Im just a newbie with lots of thoughts and wishes. __________________

10-31-05, 10:12 PM	#10
JScones Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 5,501 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	An all-in-one SH3 Tool sounds great in theory, but who would it be aimed at? The average player, or the modding faithful? If the modding faithful, then TT has a brilliant tool already. However, understandably, average players just wouldn't have the time for it. Looking at Basic.cfg for example, it's not publicised, but anyone who has looked at some of SH3Cmdr's cfg files would have realised by now that they can build a whole Basic.cfg file on the fly (even more obvious with the next release ). This is something I am moving towards. The next logical progression (and you can see this evolving with SH3Cmdr's Options) is to provide an interface where users can simply select the name of the mod they want and the interface builds the required (text and binary) files for them - it would recognise when two selected mods changed the same values and would alert the user or look for pre-defined rules for handling. Kinda like an SH3 specific JSGME. To this end, a database would need to be created and maintained storing mod names and the files/settings that go with it. Creating a database isn't hard - heck, it's what I do for a living - but the maintenance part will be where it falls down plus it all takes time to do. Unfortunately for me, SH3Cmdr has opened up so many opportunities that prioritising them all has become quite overwhelming. Another alternative is a "cut-down" Analyzer. Mod makers create an "Analyzer Lite" rule file which they distribute with their mods. The rule file includes the names, settings and details of files that the mod changes. Players would open this rule file in Analyzer Lite and by querying the contents, Analyzer Lite would present a list of (user friendly) options that the user can change. So, using the Atmosphere mod for example, only one version of scene.dat (if any) would need to be included with one "rule" file. This rule file will outline what settings in what related files can be changed. The player sees a user friendly interface listing each of the mod files and the settings they can adjust (ie in this case water density, wave height etc). Very high level idea which would require much more thought, but very do-able. Or, even simpler still, a "Lite Analyzer Lite" where users simply get a screen for each of the key SH3 binary files and they can set what values they want through the pre-defined interface. Mods affecting these files can include an instruction sheet saying "Go into Lite Analyzer Lite and change these settings...make sure these other settings are...and don't change these settings...etc" or again, a rule file could be loaded. I have quite a few other ideas varying between simple and exotic (this is something I have been thinking about for six months), but these are some to start thinking about. BTW TT's Analyzer tool was invaluable in pointing me to the right spots in scene.dat and GUNS_SUB.sim.

10-31-05, 11:22 PM	#11
Kpt. Lehmann GWX Project Director Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 6,992 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	Wow Jaeson... I hope you continue with this. I love the feeling of it and it seems you are throwing the doors open to changes that previously were only accessible by a select few. That is true community spirit. All Ahead Flank! __________________ www.thegreywolves.com All you need is good men. - Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock

11-01-05, 01:31 AM	#12
Reece CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Down Under Posts: 34,688 Downloads: 171 Uploads: 0	This, would be a great Idea, but what a job! Still I thought I'd better mention an inportant file Marhkimov, can add to the list "menu_1024_768.ini", have had to update this many times. Good Luck!

11-01-05, 02:27 AM	#14
JScones Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 5,501 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	What TT said is 100% correct - developing an interface would be very, very time consuming. To this end the "Lite Analyzer Lite" approach is prolly the most likely to be implemented, unless there are people here who can commit to such a project pretty much full time (I can't). Fortunately, TT has done all the hard work insofar as analysing the most important binary files. A compromise could be that someone creates a list of the typical values changed and they could be built into an interface first. My mind is picturing an interface similar to SH3Cmdr, but instead of career names on the left, there are categories such as "Fog", "Water", "Sky", "Weather", "Guns", "Torpedoes", etc etc... Such a tool would never be as dynamic as File Analyzer, but it would perhaps be more accessible to non-techo mainstream players that just want "Clear water", "bigger waves" or "quicker guns". Again, it depends on the target audience. If the audience is modders, then all you need is File Analyzer and building anything else would be a waste of time. Anyway, that's my 2c worth. Sorry for hogging the topic. I'll happily sit back now and see what others have to say. I'll provide whatever assistance I can if anyone else wants to have a go...

11-01-05, 02:35 AM	#15
Marhkimov Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bay Area, California, USA Posts: 2,377 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Don't worry about me. I think I'm just going to jump into file analyzer to see what I can learn. __________________ It takes two to tango