Reverting TMA solution?

[N00be]

Hi

Is it possible to revert your TMA solution back to the state where you just have the contacts (single or merged) shown on the map?

I often do TMA on something, thats then changing course alot and I dont really want to update the solution all the time. So I drop contact, re assing trackers and keep it that way, so I always know the bearing. Is there a way to just revert to the state before you pressed the "Enter Solution" button on the TMA screen? Without dropping the whole track, and reassinging a tracker?

Thanks!

[Molon Labe]

No, but you could always update the solution to put it on the correct bearing, even if you don't know the range.

[OKO]

Originally Posted by N00be

So I drop contact, re assing trackers and keep it that way, so I always know the bearing.

Noobe : that's a major error =>
If you do that, this mean you WILL NEVER have a descent solution, because this need many LOBS (tracking on only one sensor).
Even on a target with erratic speed and course, you can find quite a nice solution when using 20 minutes of LOBs. Not a very accurate one, BUT something really enough usefull to track and engage the target.

If you drop the contact, you drop the history of this contact, and that's a thing never to do when you can avoid it.
Because history IS what you work with on that station.

If you want to know the bearing of the target, just look, at it on the sonar (circle contact ... one clic to know) then compare to the one you have on your solution.
If both are different, it's maybe time to work on TMA station, but CERTAINLY not the time to drop the contact !!!

[N00be]

Originally Posted by OKO

Noobe : that's a major error =>
If you do that, this mean you WILL NEVER have a descent solution, because this need many LOBS (tracking on only one sensor).
Even on a target with erratic speed and course, you can find quite a nice solution when using 20 minutes of LOBs. Not a very accurate one, BUT something really enough usefull to track and engage the target.

If you drop the contact, you drop the history of this contact, and that's a thing never to do when you can avoid it.
Because history IS what you work with on that station.

If you want to know the bearing of the target, just look, at it on the sonar (circle contact ... one clic to know) then compare to the one you have on your solution.
If both are different, it's maybe time to work on TMA station, but CERTAINLY not the time to drop the contact !!!

I meant contacts that change course and that are no threats. I often dont have the time in MP games to do tma for each contact because other things need my attention(especially cause once I entered a solution, I dont see that they changed course by looking at the nav screen, which means I need to check each contact periodically to even take note that a civilian I did an TMA solution for, changed course, a warning at nav screen, that my solutions bearing is not matching the trackers bearing anymore would already be enough) So I generally decide not to update the tma for civilians, dont need a tma solution for a civilian, I just need to know in what direction he is. I need a correct solution, if they get close to something I wanna fire at.
At some point in most games with civilians, there are just so many contacts that if I were doing tMA for all of them, I d be spending all my time at the TMA screen, while I should be somewhere else. At that point, I just wanna drop the solution and dont care about it, cause I rather wanna have a correct bearing on the nav map, than a wrong solution.
Thanks for the answer. If the DW interface would just be not so restrictive int his matter.. :-/

[OKO]

I understood you were talking about a target ...

anyway why making a solution on neutral (bio/civilian) ? =>
when this neutral could prevent you to hit the right target
in this case you must do a TMA on it to choose the best time to engage the target without risk to hit the neutral.

A good TMA is just the final result of a good tactical analyse.
1) you must track the target and potential nuisance that could prevent you to hit the right target.
2) wait until you've got enought info before going to TMA screen
3) making a TMA on target AND on neutrals near the target (this takes 2 minutes in the game ...)
4) engaging the target when you have the max probabilities to hit the right one, but before you fall in a difficult situation, and just after enter a new solution on TMA (this time it's 15 sec of work here)

4 is the most difficult thing
There is always a right time to engage
too soon => you could hit a wrong target and be detected too early.
too late => you could be detected and engaged before you fired

I see that you, as most people, consider you don't have time to waste on TMA screen
that's right, but for wrong reasons here =>
you think you need to spend lots of time on this station, but you only have to come here when you have something to do !
And you have something to do here ONLY when you have enought info to work. Not before.

Before, you must try to track the target and neutrals near it on BB to get the DEMON info on them.
before, you will spend all your time on sonar, and not on TMA, to see if there is some change in the SNR of a target, to search on NB for new contact ...

If you think you need to spend too much time on the TMA station, that's just because you don't go there at the right time.
A good TMA is just the final result of a good sonar work.
This is the sonar that will tell you if a neutral must be tracked or not to ensure it won't be hit instead of your target, not the TMA.
Of course, you really don't matter about a neutral at 30° from your target bearing, but a neutral at 10°, closing the target's bearing MUST be tracked also, and you must do a TMA on it, as for the target.

A TMA need 2 minutes of work, maximum, if you do it in the right time, this mean when you have enought information to make it.

on your above example, where you dropped the contact sometimes, you will just never have enought informations on the potential nuisance because you didn't wait enought LOBs to work with.
That's why I said, you should never do this, or you won't have a good picture, then you could engage the wrong target.

[N00be]

Hey


Mhh, guess you missunderstood me.

You write:

when this neutral could prevent you to hit the right target
in this case you must do a TMA on it to choose the best time to engage the target without risk to hit the neutral.
[...]

Of course, you really don't matter about a neutral at 30° from your target bearing, but a neutral at 10°, closing the target's bearing MUST be tracked also, and you must do a TMA on it, as for the target.

I already said exactly that:

I need a correct solution, if they get close(the civilians) to something I wanna fire at.

You say

you think you need to spend lots of time on this station, but you only have to come here when you have something to do !
And you have something to do here ONLY when you have enought info to work. Not before.

But thats missing my point. I was talking about TMA solutions that are no longer needed. After all those things you talked about have already happened. I still have all those solutions on the nav screen. The source of the solutions is changing course frequently, thus manual TMA solution correction is required to get useful information on the nav screen. And that results in me using the TMA for redundant information, since the reason I did the TMA for that civilian in the first place isnt applying anymore. So I drop it, and re assign it, to get that nice LOB on the nav screen back, since it updates automatically without me having to do continous TMA (because you dont notice that the solution is not accurate anymore anywhere else) just for the purpose of having an accurate bearing on the nav map.

cheers

[MaHuJa]

I'm thinking that it may be possible to merge it with something and then split them to get the desired effect.

(Heck, can we merge with manual contacts?)

[N00be]

I have to bring this thread up again.

After reading

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2005/MAB0501.htm
(btw, very _very_ interesting! )
I have the impression that TMA is not only done before firing but constantly, even without having alot data. In the report they were clearing the baffles and got a new contact and immediatelly did TMA, estimated range etc.

Originally Posted by From the report

The FTOW said that he followed his usual procedure to determine a solution for S-13 and other contacts, based on the information relayed to him when the sonar system initially gained a contact. He indicated that sonar did not designate any of the contacts as merchant ships. He stated that "just being in Hawaiian waters," he assumed that the contacts were typical of the "traffic around here . . . probably trawlers, fishing vessels [and] pleasure crafts."

The FTOW told Safety Board investigators, "I always put in a closing solution, which means the contact . . . is pointing at us, coming at us . . . and anywhere between 5 and 15 knots" depending on whether the contact is a trawler or a merchant ship. He added that he always initially entered a conservative range, "usually anywhere between 8,000 and 10,000 yards."

[...]

Fire control data, as reconstructed by the Navy, show that after the bearing data for S-13 were relayed from the sonar system to the fire control system (at 1232:59), the FTOW entered three closing solutions between 1233:14 and 1240.00. While the FTOW was calculating these early solutions for S-13, the Ehime Maru was moving at 6 knots while stowing anchor. The FTOW next entered a closing solution about 16 minutes later, at 1256:00. Then, about 1258, he changed the course for S-13 from closing to "opening," that is, heading away from the submarine.

The FTOW stated that, on the day of the accident, he never tracked more than two or three contacts, which was a light workload. He indicated that, in the past, he had tracked as many as 20 to 30 contacts in high-traffic areas and that on more than one occasion, he had worked with another fire control technician at his station to track more than 40 contacts at a time.

Now thats contrary to what OKO said.

Originally Posted by OKO

you think you need to spend lots of time on this station, but you only have to come here when you have something to do !
And you have something to do here ONLY when you have enought info to work. Not before.

[...]

If you think you need to spend too much time on the TMA station, that's just because you don't go there at the right time.
A good TMA is just the final result of a good sonar work.

[...]

A TMA need 2 minutes of work, maximum, if you do it in the right time, this mean when you have enought information to make it.

In the report they even stated that in a high contact density enviroment they sometimes had 2 people constantly managing solutions for up to 40! contacts.
So I conclude that, if TMA is done manually, you could well be constantly calculating and recalculating course speed and range for contacts. Not for a fire solution or tactical awareness, but contact awareness / situational awareness.
Any RL bubblehead can help carify?

[Molon Labe]

Plotting a first solution isn't the same as plotting a "good" solution. Before the part you highlighted, take a note of all the parameters that the FCOW assumed for the initial solution. That solution is very much a "ball park" solution, and it's a very big ball park.

OKO prefers not to do this first very sloppy solution because his time is better spent at other stations. The FCOW, however, is assigned to this station, so he pretty much does TMA all the time, even when there isn't enough data to get it right and he has to assume a lot.

For what it's worth, I usually do an initial ballpark solution, assuming range based on classification and signal strength, a closing course, and a nominal speed for the classification. That's just a personal preference, though.

[Bellman]

Just for the record, and to clarify things for newcommers, reference in sub TMA to 'two- minute intervals'
does not apply to first returns. There is an error in the manual.

'Manual Errata.
Additions and corrections to the printed/pdf manual can be found in the file "SCS-DW-ManualErrata_V.1.pdf", located
in the installed Manual folder, as well as the Manual folder on game disk 1.'

TMA Stations (Kilo, Akula, Seawolf and 688(i)) :-
'The following text is misleading: ''As long as a tracker is tracking, bearing information is sent to
TMA in two-minute intervals.''
Change to: Once a contact is marked and a tracker is assigned, bearing information is sent to TMA.
The first returns are time-averaged so the second line of bearing does not appear on the TMA Plot until four minutes
after the contact is designated. Thereafter bearing information is sent to TMA in two-minute intervals as long
as a tracker is assigned and the contact is still detected.'

[OKO]

Originally Posted by N00be

Now thats contrary to what OKO said.
In the report they even stated that in a high contact density enviroment they sometimes had 2 people constantly managing solutions for up to 40! contacts.

So you need to spend all your time on this station only, and even call a friend to help you to do the work, letting all the other stations free....

Is that what you understood ? really ?

As you didn't get it, I will resume the point more brievely =>

1) You are alone in a sub on DW
2) you need to manage 7 stations and not only 1 on DW
3) Spending time in TMA station when you don't have no enought informations to work is a complete waste of time on DW
4) enought informations mean at least 3 goob LOBs on a target with crossed sensors, and 7 to 8 good LOBs with only one tracker (In 2 legs if parallel course with target) on DW
5) the most important time to do that is just before firing at target on DW

So, now, if you are addicted to the TMA screen, find buddies to play with you on other stations, it is easy ...
But spending all your time on this station will be very boring 95% of mission time, so good luck, and don't forget to take a book or you will maybe fall asleep.

The station where you usually spend the most of the mission time is certainly not the TMA. On the opposite, TMA is one of the less used station, where you spend the less mission time.

SONAR is the most used station, and when you work on TMA, you don't work on SONAR.
Anyway, for the TMA, EVERYTHING come from the SONAR, and working at TMA is EASY if you previously did the good job on SONAR BEFORE working at TMA :

- good merge of contact
- good ID of contact
- good speed evaluation (with or without DEMON)
- perfect evaluation of corrupted / non corrupted LOBs to work with on TMA

If you do all this work on the sonar in a competent way, work on TMA become really easy and very fast : less than 1 minutes of TMA work for a 2 to 5% accuracy solution.

I think you just forgot there is some differences beetween the real thing and the simulation, but your own judgment should have shown you this ...

Cheers.

[N00be]

Hehe, isnt it kinda ironoc that I get told in this thread that this is not RL and in another thread I get told this isnt a game but a simulation.
If I play the sim right, there will be "less good" tma solutions, like in RL that base upon not so reliable data and need corrections and updates from time to time.
If I play it like you suggest, I will stay at sonar and do TMA just before shooting. Not realistic, but hey, its a game. Erm, no a simulation? Argh, whatever.... ;-)

I ll just continue to play the way it works best and stop playing realistic

[OKO]

Originally Posted by N00be

I ll just continue to play the way it works best and stop playing realistic

you never started playing realistic way for many reasons :

first of them is you are alone on the ship.

second of them is you don't have even one qualification of the real thing, when a real ship need hundreds of them.

So don't say you stop something you never started

this doesn't mean this is unrealistic to play to this simulation, on the opposite, there is lots of very interesting thing to learn here.

But once more, your own judgment should tell you whether to stop or continue to work on a station.
Here you just need to learn to divide your workload beetween stations.
and that's the reason why I told you to NOT spending to much time on TMA screen.

[N00be]

c mon please dont first tell me to use common sense and then tell me that I never played realistic cause I am not qualified....
But if you insist, the sentence should have been:
I will stop trying to play as realistic as I can, taking my inability and nescience into acount.
Better?
Anway, this leads me back to my initial point. If I am not supposed to play the way its being done IRL I would very much appreciate to be able drop my TMA solutions, cause after all, I have no slave sitting at TMA and autocrew is cheating.

[OKO]

Why not playing together nOObe
I will be online tomorrow night, and will be a pleasure for me to do some collaborative game on MS with you
... I will let you manage the TMA of course
I propose you thursday 3rd at 09:00 pm GMT+2
I have some coop for us
And we could talk about the best station allocation on MS games.