RUb 1.43 and Flak gun effective range

jaxa · 09-04-05, 12:23 PM

Effective range of Flak guns in RUb 1.43 is extremally decreased - from 1500 (long range), 1000 (middle range) and 500 (short range)m in stock SH3 to 300 m (all ranges) in RUb.
I've found that max range for 2 cm L/65 C/30 and C/38 was 4900 m, 3,7 cm L/83 SK C/30 was 8500 m, L/69 M42 was 6400 m and L/57 M43 was 6500 m (all at 45 degrees).
For details look at http://www.navweaps.com/

Don't you think that RUb Flak gun effective range should be correct?

Hartmann · 09-04-05, 04:54 PM

i think that are low values.

300 m ..a good rifle can reach this distance easily.

But are for disuade the players that fight in surface against the planes

. with this low values the better is do a crash dive.

CCIP · 09-04-05, 05:09 PM

I think you should differentiate between max range and max effective range. Sure the gun could shoot that far, but I'd say even at 300m, there's a good chance it'd bounce off well-armored key parts of the aircraft...

Pablo · 09-04-05, 08:54 PM

Hi!

The Oerlikon 20mm cannon (used on naval vessels) had an effective range of about 1000 yards. This weapon is in the same class (barrel length, muzzle velocity, and fire control) as the 20mm AA used on U-boats, so 1000 yards looks right for those systems. AA using 37mm cannons would have a somewhat greater effective range.

As a reference, check out the After Action Report of USS Enterprise for the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands (October 1942) here, where the commander asks for an increase in the 1000 yard effective range of 20mm cannon to better help deal with dive bomber attacks.

Pablo

jaxa · 09-05-05, 11:03 AM

CCIP - I know that max range isn't equal to max effective range, but in RUb max effective range should be increased in my opinion.
Why all ranges (long, middle and short) are the same (300 m)? Where is the reason?
What do you think about long range at 1000 m, middle at 500 m and short at 250 m?

CCIP · 09-05-05, 02:15 PM

The other problem RUb compensates for, as I think Beery noted, is the accuracy. The Flak gunners are super-accurate in SHIII; they'll hit the plane perfectly at 2km away when no human would really be able to.

So, RUb's consideration is both for effective range and accuracy.

I just man the guns myself if I want to shoot them from far away. At least the accuracy is human

The general result is quite alright though. Fights against aircraft seem to be pretty realistic in terms of duration, and there's been a few times when concentrated fire from late-war heavily armed U-boats brought down even Catalinas on the first pass (lucky shots I guess).

But anyway.... it's very easy to change this in CrewAI.cfg for those who don't like it.

jaxa · 09-05-05, 03:33 PM

OK, it's easy to change CrewAI.cfg, but which value can I use? Is it possible to change this only by 100 m (from 300 to 200 for instance) or by 50 m (from 300 to 250) too? I don't know if RUB/SH3 accept it and it will work.

jaxa · 09-06-05, 01:24 PM

I think Airpower 1.4c has these values: 1200, 800 and 400 m,
AAGuns Selection Range in Airpower is 1500 m, in RUb is 600 m.
As I wrote earlier RUb has too decreased values, especially as you compare them to real 3,7 cm gun max range (6400-8500 m) - 300 m for this gun isn't realistic effective range.

joea · 09-06-05, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pablo

Hi!

The Oerlikon 20mm cannon (used on naval vessels) had an effective range of about 1000 yards. This weapon is in the same class (barrel length, muzzle velocity, and fire control) as the 20mm AA used on U-boats, so 1000 yards looks right for those systems. AA using 37mm cannons would have a somewhat greater effective range.

As a reference, check out the After Action Report of USS Enterprise for the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands (October 1942) here, where the commander asks for an increase in the 1000 yard effective range of 20mm cannon to better help deal with dive bomber attacks.

Pablo

Ummm Pablo, I doubt the u-boats were a very effective AA platform and in no way comparable to a large warship like a CV or a BB with dozens of light AA. They were not stable, had no fire control (for the 37mm) and as I said lacked the numbers. I managed to down a Swordfish with the nerfed RuB AA guns but would not try to take on a Catalina.

Pablo · 09-06-05, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pablo

Hi!

The Oerlikon 20mm cannon (used on naval vessels) had an effective range of about 1000 yards. This weapon is in the same class (barrel length, muzzle velocity, and fire control) as the 20mm AA used on U-boats, so 1000 yards looks right for those systems. AA using 37mm cannons would have a somewhat greater effective range.

As a reference, check out the After Action Report of USS Enterprise for the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands (October 1942) here, where the commander asks for an increase in the 1000 yard effective range of 20mm cannon to better help deal with dive bomber attacks.

Pablo

Ummm Pablo, I doubt the u-boats were a very effective AA platform and in no way comparable to a large warship like a CV or a BB with dozens of light AA. They were not stable, had no fire control (for the 37mm) and as I said lacked the numbers. I managed to down a Swordfish with the nerfed RuB AA guns but would not try to take on a Catalina.

Hi!

I believe you are correct that U-boats were not an effective AA platform compared to surface ships, and that this was due in part to the limited number of AA weapons available; however, I am making a distinction between "effective range" and "overall effectiveness."

While a ship is generally a more stable gun platform, it's not clear to me that is true while ships are avoiding air attack - given that SH3 U-boat guns can't be operated in rough seas. As it happens, the Enterprise gunnery officer noted in his report on the Battle of the Eastern Solomons (August, 1942) (here) noted:

- the 20mm gunners were using local control and tracer ammunition (just as SH3 U-boats do)
- target deflection was next to nothing (the attackers were coming straight at them) which resulted in very accurate fire. This is generally the case in SH3, where the aircraft come straight at you.
- the ship was shaken violently by hits and near-misses.

The Enterprise commander also notes (here) the ship was the ship was making radical maneuvers (speed >27 knots, with maximum rudder) to throw off the aim of the enemy dive bombers while the 20mm guns were firing. It is under the above conditions that the effective range of 20mm Oerlikons was judged to be about 1,000 yards; I should point out that radical maneuvers at maximum speed are a good way to throw off the aim of enemy aircraft in SH3 as well.

The difference is, as you pointed out, that a capital ship has lots of 20mm (and other caliber weapons) going, as well as supporting fire from other ships in the fleet, while the U-boat has just a few 20mm and maybe a 37mm gun. I think Jace's Airpower mod (included in RUb) makes aircarft more suitably resistant to the effects of 20mm cannon fire so that I personally use default settings for the Academy, but when I'm playing a campaign I try to dive rather than fight it out on the surface. If I'm damaged, it's back to the surface for a fight to the finish.

Pablo

joea · 09-07-05, 04:48 AM

True Pablo, I guess the problem in the game is, the stock airplanes are too fragile and thus easy to shoot down, and the AI gunners are too accurate. Jace solved the first problem as you said (I think this is incorporated in RuB as well) and we need to find a way to nerf the gunnner's accuracy. Your info has convinced me that the AA range in the mod is too short.

oRGy · 09-07-05, 04:52 AM

Isn't the AA accuracy setting in Crewai.cfg or sim.cfg?

Pablo · 09-07-05, 08:18 PM

Hi!

The range limits are in CrewAI.cfg

The accuracy for AI anti-aircraft (I think this is for all AA guns, whether on U-boats, ships, or shore) is in sim.cfg

Pablo

oRGy · 09-08-05, 05:42 AM

I tested setting the accuracy from 8 to 50 in sim.cfg last night but I don't think it made a difference - in the flak training mission the gunner still shot up the planes and seemed quite accurate.

Hm - unless one should go down in numbers to get less accurate? I'll have to see.

Beery · 09-09-05, 05:23 AM

In RUb the AI are limited to 300 metres because that was the effective range for a human shooting at a plane from a U-boat in WW2 (guns themselves have an effective range based on bullet trajectory, but the 'human' effective range is far less, as it's based on eyesight and the ability to effectively lead a target). Apart from the realism aspects, this feature exists as a much needed restriction on the AI's superhuman accuracy, and it actually allows the player to get involved in AA shooting, which was pointless before, since the AI could hit a gnat's whisker at 1200 yards.

This feature will not be changed because it works extremely well. If anything, more restrictions need to be added because the FlAK guns are still far more effective than they were in reality. We've tried adjusting the AI accuracy. For the U-boat AI, only the initial accuracy can be adjusted. Within a split second another routine kicks in that pulls the aim in towards the target. There is no known way to make the AI less accurate overall.

09-04-05, 12:23 PM	#1
jaxa The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Poland Posts: 1,501 Downloads: 418 Uploads: 0	RUb 1.43 and Flak gun effective range Effective range of Flak guns in RUb 1.43 is extremally decreased - from 1500 (long range), 1000 (middle range) and 500 (short range)m in stock SH3 to 300 m (all ranges) in RUb. I've found that max range for 2 cm L/65 C/30 and C/38 was 4900 m, 3,7 cm L/83 SK C/30 was 8500 m, L/69 M42 was 6400 m and L/57 M43 was 6500 m (all at 45 degrees). For details look at http://www.navweaps.com/ Don't you think that RUb Flak gun effective range should be correct?

09-04-05, 05:09 PM	#3
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	I think you should differentiate between max range and max effective range. Sure the gun could shoot that far, but I'd say even at 300m, there's a good chance it'd bounce off well-armored key parts of the aircraft... __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

09-05-05, 02:15 PM	#6
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	The other problem RUb compensates for, as I think Beery noted, is the accuracy. The Flak gunners are super-accurate in SHIII; they'll hit the plane perfectly at 2km away when no human would really be able to. So, RUb's consideration is both for effective range and accuracy. I just man the guns myself if I want to shoot them from far away. At least the accuracy is human The general result is quite alright though. Fights against aircraft seem to be pretty realistic in terms of duration, and there's been a few times when concentrated fire from late-war heavily armed U-boats brought down even Catalinas on the first pass (lucky shots I guess). But anyway.... it's very easy to change this in CrewAI.cfg for those who don't like it. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

09-09-05, 05:23 AM	#15
Beery Admiral Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA (but still a Yorkshireman at heart - tha can allus tell a Yorkshireman...) Posts: 2,497 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	In RUb the AI are limited to 300 metres because that was the effective range for a human shooting at a plane from a U-boat in WW2 (guns themselves have an effective range based on bullet trajectory, but the 'human' effective range is far less, as it's based on eyesight and the ability to effectively lead a target). Apart from the realism aspects, this feature exists as a much needed restriction on the AI's superhuman accuracy, and it actually allows the player to get involved in AA shooting, which was pointless before, since the AI could hit a gnat's whisker at 1200 yards. This feature will not be changed because it works extremely well. If anything, more restrictions need to be added because the FlAK guns are still far more effective than they were in reality. We've tried adjusting the AI accuracy. For the U-boat AI, only the initial accuracy can be adjusted. Within a split second another routine kicks in that pulls the aim in towards the target. There is no known way to make the AI less accurate overall. __________________ "More mysterious. Yeah. I'll just try to think, 'Where the hell's the whiskey?'" - Bob Harris, Lost in Translation. "Anyrooad up, ah'll si thi" - Missen.

09-04-05, 04:54 PM	#2
Hartmann Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Grid CH 26, Spain ,Barcelona Posts: 1,857 Downloads: 204 Uploads: 0	i think that are low values. 300 m ..a good rifle can reach this distance easily. But are for disuade the players that fight in surface against the planes . with this low values the better is do a crash dive.

09-04-05, 08:54 PM	#4
Pablo Commodore Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 641 Downloads: 168 Uploads: 0	Hi! The Oerlikon 20mm cannon (used on naval vessels) had an effective range of about 1000 yards. This weapon is in the same class (barrel length, muzzle velocity, and fire control) as the 20mm AA used on U-boats, so 1000 yards looks right for those systems. AA using 37mm cannons would have a somewhat greater effective range. As a reference, check out the After Action Report of USS Enterprise for the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands (October 1942) here, where the commander asks for an increase in the 1000 yard effective range of 20mm cannon to better help deal with dive bomber attacks. Pablo

09-05-05, 11:03 AM	#5
jaxa The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Poland Posts: 1,501 Downloads: 418 Uploads: 0	CCIP - I know that max range isn't equal to max effective range, but in RUb max effective range should be increased in my opinion. Why all ranges (long, middle and short) are the same (300 m)? Where is the reason? What do you think about long range at 1000 m, middle at 500 m and short at 250 m?

09-05-05, 03:33 PM	#7
jaxa The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Poland Posts: 1,501 Downloads: 418 Uploads: 0	OK, it's easy to change CrewAI.cfg, but which value can I use? Is it possible to change this only by 100 m (from 300 to 200 for instance) or by 50 m (from 300 to 250) too? I don't know if RUB/SH3 accept it and it will work.

09-06-05, 01:24 PM	#8
jaxa The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Poland Posts: 1,501 Downloads: 418 Uploads: 0	I think Airpower 1.4c has these values: 1200, 800 and 400 m, AAGuns Selection Range in Airpower is 1500 m, in RUb is 600 m. As I wrote earlier RUb has too decreased values, especially as you compare them to real 3,7 cm gun max range (6400-8500 m) - 300 m for this gun isn't realistic effective range.

09-07-05, 04:48 AM	#11
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	True Pablo, I guess the problem in the game is, the stock airplanes are too fragile and thus easy to shoot down, and the AI gunners are too accurate. Jace solved the first problem as you said (I think this is incorporated in RuB as well) and we need to find a way to nerf the gunnner's accuracy. Your info has convinced me that the AA range in the mod is too short.

09-07-05, 04:52 AM	#12
oRGy Crusty Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 648 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Isn't the AA accuracy setting in Crewai.cfg or sim.cfg?

09-07-05, 08:18 PM	#13
Pablo Commodore Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 641 Downloads: 168 Uploads: 0	Hi! The range limits are in CrewAI.cfg The accuracy for AI anti-aircraft (I think this is for all AA guns, whether on U-boats, ships, or shore) is in sim.cfg Pablo

09-08-05, 05:42 AM	#14
oRGy Crusty Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 648 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	I tested setting the accuracy from 8 to 50 in sim.cfg last night but I don't think it made a difference - in the flak training mission the gunner still shot up the planes and seemed quite accurate. Hm - unless one should go down in numbers to get less accurate? I'll have to see.