Sub museum in Groton CT

[mike_espo]

Just got back from a new england vacation with the wife. Talked her into going to Groton for a day to visit the museum and the USS Nautilus.

Gotta say I was extremely disapointed, I would have complained if it was not free. There is nothing there which cannot be read in an already published book. Nothing new. I would have figured after 15+years since the cold war, that some new info would be on display.

I was frankly shocked at the Nautilus. The ships been decommisioned for 25years and still cannot get a look at the reactor or the engineering spaces. I mentioned this to one of the CPOs on duty and they said: classified!! :rotfl: Come on! the boat is noisier than my grandmas rocking chair and could only do 18knots!!!!! A peek at a 50 year old reactor is not a threat to national security!

I have been in a number of diesel-electric boats; since I live in Chicago, I have visited the U505 often. You can touch the instruments, and get an overall great experience.

The nautilus exibit is lousy. Everything is behind glass with cheezy
dummies for crewmembers. Overall a real waste of time


Thoughts??

[timmyg00]

I'm sorry to hear that this free visit to a piece of history did not meet with your expectations, whatever they were... Seriously, what are you expecting for a free museum - one that depends on donations and, to a lesser extent, earnings from the museum store. In my opinion, you can't beat what you get for the price, and if you really poke around, you get a lot, and can learn a lot.

Originally Posted by mike_espo

There is nothing there which cannot be read in an already published book.

Perhaps, but you got to see it firsthand, instead of reading about it, or even seeing it on TV - didn't you?

Originally Posted by mike_espo

I would have figured after 15+years since the cold war, that some new info would be on display.

I was frankly shocked at the Nautilus. The ships been decommisioned for 25years and still cannot get a look at the reactor or the engineering spaces. I mentioned this to one of the CPOs on duty and they said: classified!! :rotfl: Come on! the boat is noisier than my grandmas rocking chair and could only do 18knots!!!!! A peek at a 50 year old reactor is not a threat to national security!

Many things stay classified much longer than 15 years. Many things from the Cold War era still are classified, and probably for good reason. Somebody obviously thinks there's a good reason to keep the engineering spaces classified. Perhaps sharing nuclear reactor technology, even supposedly "antiquated" technology, is not something the Navy is willing to do.

Perhaps they also keep those spaces off-limits due to safety concerns - exposed machinery has a way of attracting and biting unwary hands.

Furthermore, your claim that the ship could only do 18 knots is in error. It could do at least 23 knots submerged, which was pretty hot for its day, and also considering it did not have the hydrodynamic hull form that most modern submarines have.

Originally Posted by mike_espo

I have been in a number of diesel-electric boats; since I live in Chicago, I have visited the U505 often. You can touch the instruments, and get an overall great experience.
The nautilus exibit is lousy. Everything is behind glass with cheezy
dummies for crewmembers.

That's all well and good, but the more people (especially kids) that get their grubby paws on the controls, instruments and machinery, the more money that has to be spent on maintenance and upkeep, which is money that most museums like the Submarine Force Museum would rather use for exhibit upkeep, and to stay afloat (pun intended). Besides, what do you get out of flipping a bunch of deactivated switches, or turning valves that no longer function?

Another reason that much of the boat is protected is that there's a lot of stuff of historical significance in there that they would obviously like to keep in pristine condition. You still get to see it up close, you just can't touch it. Many people would be pretty happy with that.

Additionally, part of the reason that much of that stuff is behind plexiglass and not accessible to public fingers is for safety. Can you imagine the lawsuit resulting from some kid getting his hand crushed - or worse - in a piece of exposed machinery?

You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but I've been there several times, and I sure don't share it...

TG

[Kapitan]

never been ona anuclear submarine (museam one that is) but even some diesels from the cold war are classified take HMS ocelot in chatham her oparations are still seacret the boat was first used in the 60's and after all this time stuff is still not allowed to be seen ie log books and such.

HMS alliance a WW2 submarine in gosport is still classified (log books) because she served in the begining of the cold war but she was launched in the 40's

some WW2 oparations are also classified so its not unusualy for some thing only 25 years old to still be classified

did you know that every submarine in russia that includes the old ones and the ones that have sunk are classified and regarded as a state seacret and state property ? any unotharised person going into on on them could result in inprisionment

think yourself lucky that the nautilus is up for show cause theres not many vessels that are

just for the record HMS Victory in portsmouth is still in commission with the royal navy (hence why she can fly the white ensign) and photography isnt realy allowed on her (sign saying so ) but this vessel is over 400 years old still classified?

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by mike_espo

I mentioned this to one of the CPOs on duty and they said: classified!! :rotfl: Come on! the boat is noisier than my grandmas rocking chair and could only do 18knots!!!!!

Thoughts??

Fun thing about classified information: A lot of it is a verbatim copy of stuff you can find in Janes Defense Weekly. There was a big to-do about displaying the propeller of a Sturgeon class submarine in the Smithsonian long after everyone and their brother had 7-bladed, highly skewed propellers. They don't even bother to cover them up in a lot of photos anymore. The thing they cover is the the shrowd.

The Navy is especially jealous about anything related to nuclear technologies.

[mike_espo]

Just had to vent!

I dragged the wife an hour from a great stay in Neuport RI to see that! As a physics teacher I really wanted to see the reactor and it just does not make any sense that we could not.....

Kapitain: the reason no photos on HMS Victory as is the USS Constitution are due to the age of the ships and the effects of flash , not any classified material.... :rotfl:

[Kapitan]

shouldnt make a diffrence age or not i can take picturs of ocelot that is 40 years old but victory 400 year old doesnt make sence

[MarkShot]

I have no doubt that the breadth and depth of information which you can find on the Web, in books, and on the History Channel exceeds what is available at many real world exhibits. For me, that does not diminish the value of the exhibit.

I recently was is Baltimore, Maryland a few days. I had a free Sunday to visit the Inner Harbor. Although I knew about the Science Center, Aquarium, the Constellation ... I was pleasantly surprised to find and tour the Torsk there (Tench Class WWII veteran sub).

Despite all that I have read, it still meant something to see it all laid out in front of you. Also for young people who have yet to become avid readers, it brings history to life as they are much more visual and tactile oriented. Who can say whether one of those young boys or girls on the Torsk that day will one day serve in the submarine fleet ... a desire/dream born on the Torsk?

Even with all the access to information and historical exhibits, it is so hard to truly understand (I mean "feel") history. Pearl Harbor - I have seen countless documentaries (b/w & color), movies, interviews, and toured Hawaii, and yet I don't know if I comprehend that event. The closest I came to comprehension was on 09/11, 12th, 13th ... (having lived many years in NYC and worked in and around Wall St.). For the first time, I had some sense what it must have felt like the days following the attack. How a public that wanted to stay out of another world blood bath all of sudden saw lines in front of recruiting stations ... How meaningless it is for Americans born or matured after the 1930/40's to debate the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as if they somehow know more in hindsight than those who served overseas or waited at home to see a son, husband, father again or find out if their relations overseas died in the camps ...

My point: It is important to preserve history in all of its diverse forms and even when you do ... it is still so hard to truly convey it to those who were not there.

[mike_espo]

totally agree, Mark. But the 1st nuclear reactor should be something we all should be able to marvel at........

[Bill Nichols]

Originally Posted by mike_espo

totally agree, Mark. But the 1st nuclear reactor should be something we all should be able to marvel at........

Complain to Naval Reactors...

The good news is that the 'aft end' has been prepped for visitors just like the areas up front -- i.e., plexiglass covering instrumentation panels, etc. (I know, because I was able to get in to the engineering spaces recently ). Thus, whenever Nautilus's 'Disneyworld' becomes declassified, it will be ready for the public to see.

[Kapitan]

regardless wether it is boring or not i still have nautilus as number one must see on my list i dont care if i see it tomorrow or 20 years time i will see nautilus my cadet unit in england was named after nauitlus (the only such unit in england) so nautilus is kinda special

[SmithN23]

Originally Posted by mike_espo

Just had to vent!

I dragged the wife an hour from a great stay in Neuport RI to see that! As a physics teacher I really wanted to see the reactor and it just does not make any sense that we could not.....

Kapitain: the reason no photos on HMS Victory as is the USS Constitution are due to the age of the ships and the effects of flash , not any classified material.... :rotfl:

The next time you are up in Rhode Island head up to Providence, you can tour a Russian Missile sub. The sub is a Juliett class and was also used in the movie "K-19". Here is a web site about it: http://www.juliett484.org/juliett/index.html

Also there is good reason that the engineering spaces are still classified, whats to say that some other country, say Iran for example, sends an operative over to visit the sub and copies all of the information and then Iran would have a nuclear sub.

[LuftWolf]

And the potential to provide explanations for past events to people with contrary interests to the government, etc.... :hmm:

[mike_espo]

Originally Posted by Bill Nichols

Complain to Naval Reactors...

The good news is that the 'aft end' has been prepped for visitors just like the areas up front -- i.e., plexiglass covering instrumentation panels, etc. (I know, because I was able to get in to the engineering spaces recently ). Thus, whenever Nautilus's 'Disneyworld' becomes declassified, it will be ready for the public to see.

Bill, I was just there and the CPO said that nobody can see the engineering spaces, talked with a seamen on duty and he had been there 2 years and I asked him if he saw the reactor: he said: "No".

I did see a gangway to the stern, but the sailors said that it was for a retirement ceremony at 1500.....

Would have LOVED to see the engineering spaces, turbines...

Smithn23: Just because one can see the reactor, that does not mean they have the engineering expertise to duplicate it...also it is 50 years old.....

[Bill Nichols]

I went up for a reunion of former Nautilus sailors like myself. The Navy got special permission to allow us to go aft. Only those of us who actually sailed on Nautilus were allowed to go, wives and family members had to stay forward.

[timmyg00]

This week, I'm going to Groton, Providence, Fall River, and possibly Boston on a self-guided "photographic vacation" of the naval historical sites in each of those places. Just got a spare battery and a 512MB SD card for my camera, and I'm picking up a monopod tomorrow.

I was at the Albacore in Portsmouth, NH yesterday for a "test run" ("test" because i wanted to try to get detailed close-ups of control panels) and took 87 photos, interior and exterior. That's a lot of shots, to be sure, but my technique on the interiors needs improvement

Hey Bill, did you happen to notice if the Sub Force Museum still has the attack center display (not the WWII one, but the Cold War era display)?

TG