LAN Experience

[drEaPer]

Hi

I just had a couple of LAN games with my mates, and I tried to get em into DW. They like sims but they rather play flight sims.
Since DW wants to be appealing to a wider range of people, I thought I should post what happened.

First I explained all the sub systems to em, and they quickly got the idea, they even unterstood TMA quite fast.

We played for about 6 hours, 4 missions. Always 688 or Seawolf.
They actually had fun but the fun ended when they felt that things got overcomplicated where there was no need for it.

Some examples:
Their subs both had an ESM contact, so they went to PD to exchange their info. Then they wanted to merge them in TMA and found out that it didnt work. I told em that they can make a manual solution and merge that, but they werent really satisfied with that.
Another thing that made em upset, was that there is no warning when you want to raise a mast while u are too fast. They broke lots of masts, and were really frustrated that no warning came to tell em that it isnt a good idea to raise the mast now.

Promoting stuff to the link also wasnt working well. Sometimes a sub didnt show up, but it was at 56ft with antenna up, other times the sub showed up but had no name next to it.

What made them also go crazy, was the fact that they couldnt tell the NavMap to merge their ownship contacts with the links data contacts. They just didnt understand why they should have so many stuff on their screen when they exactly knew that a certain Ownship contact was the same contact that is already on the link. They asked for an option to tell the TMA: Take link No.XXXX as a solution for M02. I told them it doesnt work that way but they were just annoyed by having the same ships multiple times on their nav maps and when trying to select a contact that was under another contact (link) they had to scroll in and out alot. They were also confused about the fact that a link contact has a different number for different players, and that made communicating harder.

Later in one of the games we had another issue with the link: The SW was at 50 ft, floating wire antenna deployed and radio antenna mast up. The player promoted a contact and said:"Its on the link". We said: No it isnt.
After a while we found out, that you cannot promote a contact to the link when you also have your floating antenna deployed.
He retreived the floating antenna and re-raised the mast and it worked again.
I guess this is a bug.

Then the 688 player found out about the UUV, jus to get more frustrated. He wasnt able to promote contacts to the link that were marked by the UUV, and he wasnt able to use the UUV in active mode.

What they also didnt like was searching the USNI reference for a certain ship, cause the ESM didnt tell em the country origin.

In the end they were just ranting about how clumsy the interface feels and that you get so little feedback from game so that I didnt managed to convince em to buy DW when it is available, which was my initial goal.

I just thought I post this here, cause those guys were seeing the game from another perspective than we do, after a while you just get very used to a game.

Well, I still love DW, but we want more people, so maybe this feedback is welcome.

see ya

[darksythe]

Originally Posted by drEaPer

Some examples:
Their subs both had an ESM contact, so they went to PD to exchange their info. Then they wanted to merge them in TMA and found out that it didnt work. I told em that they can make a manual solution and merge that, but they werent really satisfied with that.
Another thing that made em upset, was that there is no warning when you want to raise a mast while u are too fast. They broke lots of masts, and were really frustrated that no warning came to tell em that it isnt a good idea to raise the mast now.

Well it is the job of the captain to know the specs of his boat before he leaves port.

Originally Posted by drEaPer

Promoting stuff to the link also wasnt working well. Sometimes a sub didnt show up, but it was at 56ft with antenna up, other times the sub showed up but had no name next to it.

Sometimes it does take a while for the communications to travel from boat to sat to boat.

Originally Posted by drEaPer

What made them also go crazy, was the fact that they couldnt tell the NavMap to merge their ownship contacts with the links data contacts. They just didnt understand why they should have so many stuff on their screen when they exactly knew that a certain Ownship contact was the same contact that is already on the link.

Well in this case you would drop ownships track on the navmap.

Originally Posted by drEaPer

They asked for an option to tell the TMA: Take link No.XXXX as a solution for M02. I told them it doesnt work that way but they were just annoyed by having the same ships multiple times on their nav maps and when trying to select a contact that was under another contact (link) they had to scroll in and out alot. They were also confused about the fact that a link contact has a different number for different players, and that made communicating harder.

How are you supposed to merge a contact that your4 ships computer has no tracking data for. Also before someone uploads a contact to link they need tto be sure that it is a 100% solution. Thus killing the need for another ship to do any tracking for.

Originally Posted by drEaPer

Later in one of the games we had another issue with the link: The SW was at 50 ft, floating wire antenna deployed and radio antenna mast up. The player promoted a contact and said:"Its on the link". We said: No it isnt.
After a while we found out, that you cannot promote a contact to the link when you also have your floating antenna deployed.
He retreived the floating antenna and re-raised the mast and it worked again.
I guess this is a bug.

LOL No bug here. The floating wire is a one way device.

Originally Posted by drEaPer

Then the 688 player found out about the UUV, jus to get more frustrated. He wasnt able to promote contacts to the link that were marked by the UUV, and he wasnt able to use the UUV in active mode.

I never found a use for the uuv. except for mine detection.

Originally Posted by drEaPer

What they also didnt like was searching the USNI reference for a certain ship, cause the ESM didnt tell em the country origin.

Again the captain is supposed to know these things ahead of time.

This sim is not for the Faint of Heart. It is a realistic naval warfare simulator. If your friends are any good at flight simulators then they should have no problem picking up DW it does take work and is not something one can learn in one sitting. If you try to learn it all at once you end up with results like the above.

[Kapitan]

what he said

[XabbaRus]

Very interesting. I adgree with what darksythe has posted here.

About the floating wire thing.

The floating wire is a one way device but he siad the guy had his radio mast up aswell and couldn't promote to link. Surely aslong as your radio antenna is up it shoudln't matter whehter your floating wire is deployed or not.

One thing I might say is that if they are mainly flight simmers they are used to information that is more readily available and much faster processed, eg active radar gives you the exact point in the air of the target. Ground pounding targets don't usually move and can be seen. I think this is the hurdle. Although modern combat sims are accurate with some having loads of buttons sometimes it can be a case of "click and it happens".

I used to be a flight simmer til I bought 699i HK and the only flight sim I now play is EECH mod version.

A shame, sounds like if they fad more practice they might like it.

The interface might seem clunky but really considering what it could be it isn't.

[Bellman]

Darksythe

I never found a use for the uuv. except for mine detection.

Your opponents underwater will welcome this news ......and breathe a sigh of relief.

But I think you ignore the full potential of the UUV at your peril. Fish could write a book about it.

[darksythe]

Originally Posted by Bellman

Darksythe

Your opponents underwater will welcome this news ......and breathe a sigh of relief.

But I think you ignore the full potential of the UUV at your peril. Fish could write a book about it.

realy well thats very interesting. I have no use for a uuv they just take up space in my racks that could be used by something better like weapons. As far as triangulation goes i can do that myself.

[Bellman]

Yep - its a choice thing agreed.

When I am 'beating a retreat', or repositioning at speed to attack, I need to keep 'in touch' with my opponent.
The only safe way when arrays wash-out as it takes time to rebuild the picture.

But yes that extra torp you are carrying in lieu of a UUV might still scuttle me.

[Fish]

Darksythe, do you play multiplayer?

Triangulation with a UUV is common use in multiplayer.
Further, you can use it to look over a reef or around a seamount.
It becomes very usefull when you have to go at speed to evade, or sprint and drift.
The UUV then can follow, or warn you for, incoming torps. And it's very acurate when you use it in active mode when it gets hot.
Launched below 520 feet, and with depth setting below 520 the UUV will not generate TIW.
You should try, I have always two loaded and two in stock, at least.

[darksythe]

yes i play MP but am not at all fond of littoral warfare. So i avoid most maps which center around it. however i will admit that for littoral warfare i could see how uuvs would be effectivehowever if your in a situation where you are behind a seamount then you wouldnt be deeper then 525ft so it would generate a TIW call which to me is as good as dead.

Of course i could be wrong but hey we all have our tactics.

[drEaPer]

Yes the rado antenna was deployed in addition to the floating wire as I said. Please read carefully.

Originally Posted by darksythe

Well it is the job of the captain to know the specs of his boat before he leaves port.

Using this argumentation doesnt realy help much. I am talking about people new to DW. It would help em much to get a warning before raising the mast. I guess the crew of a sub wouldnt just stand there and watch the captain raise the mast at 30 kts.
"Recommend lowering all masts and antennas" "Oops, too late, sorry that I didnt warn you before you clicked that button" The guy was more saying that there is a warning, that is triggered when it is already to late.

Originally Posted by darksythe

Sometimes it does take a while for the communications to travel from boat to sat to boat.

The position was there, the name was missing. He had to lower his antenna and raise it again.

Originally Posted by darksythe

Well in this case you would drop ownships track on the navmap.

True, but why do you get several link contacts stacked above each other in the first place? One shown as friendy, one shown as neutral and if you play the FFG you get a lookout contact too (which is reappearing as soon as you delete it).

Originally Posted by darksythe

How are you supposed to merge a contact that your4 ships computer has no tracking data for.

-> By making a manual solution with the same data as the link data. But this is annoying and for the sake of gameplay could be improved so you just take the link contact directly.

Originally Posted by darksythe

Also before someone uploads a contact to link they need tto be sure that it is a 100% solution. Thus killing the need for another ship to do any tracking for.

-> No, you can use bearings promoted to the link do triangulation , where you dont need a 100% solution.

Originally Posted by darksythe

LOL No bug here. The floating wire is a one way device.

-> Read carefully. I get the impression you are a DW fanboy that doesnt really understand the whole point of my post. (No Offense! I love the game myself, else I wouldnt spend 2 days just making a video4fun, but I am always censorious )

Originally Posted by darksythe

I never found a use for the uuv. except for mine detection.

Okay, you dont use it either. So the issues exist?

Originally Posted by darksythe

Again the captain is supposed to know these things ahead of time.

This is no valid point. This is a game and not RL. In RL there is no 1 person submarine. If all people think like that, its no wonder this game will never be appealing to wider range of simmer. The player need fast and easy available plattofrminformation, not learn it all by rote.

Originally Posted by darksythe

This sim is not for the Faint of Heart. It is a realistic naval warfare simulator. If your friends are any good at flight simulators then they should have no problem picking up DW it does take work and is not something one can learn in one sitting. If you try to learn it all at once you end up with results like the above.

Also, I love DW, but I just thought it wouldnt hurt to post the impressions of 2 guys that could also have been new customers. This is a hardcore sim, yes, but on the other hand SCS also wants to sell games, and their philosophy is to make a hardcore realistc game while still tryin to catch some of the non-hardcore players. I dont think SCS could survive it they only sold games to people that were in the navy once. There _is_ room for improvements, especially when it comes to the navmap and the handling. So I wasnt really asking what my newbies did wrong, but I was pointing out what those nonhardcore players were finding clumsy and unhandy. It doesnt matter if you justify it, the point is, that they had alot trouble with it, thus SCS philosophy doesnt really work out. If this game would be for ex navy people only, there wouldnt be realism settings at all.

[XabbaRus]

I think you did the right thing as it is always interesting to find out what non bubble heads think.

I love littoral missions and the UUV thing is useful. However I guess if SCS ever implemented wire breakage due to excess speed and harsh maneuvering it wouldn't be so useful.

So maybe not realistic? Your comments please....

Just don't bite my head off.

[LuftWolf]

It sure would be nice to see some wirebreaking, I'll agree on that one without reservation.

I can imagine it would be tough to impliment in a satisfactory manner, however, given the complexity of the DW environment. However, some wires breaking, even when it seems they shouldn't I think is better than having the wires never ever break.

[LuftWolf]

On the other hand, there are some alloy and compound materials now that can be put in wire form, such as non-crystal liquid metal and carbon fibers, which are **extremely** strong, even when spun or woven thinnly. These next generation materials are light-years stronger than normal materials of the same mass.

Does anyone have any idea how thick torpedo wires are? and what kind of forces are applied to them?

Given these materials and the advanced winching technologies available today, it is conceivable that torpedo wires never break in RL anymore.

[Deathblow]

Originally Posted by drEaPer

Their subs both had an ESM contact, so they went to PD to exchange their info. Then they wanted to merge them in TMA and found out that it didnt work. I told em that they can make a manual solution and merge that, but they werent really satisfied with that.

What made them also go crazy, was the fact that they couldnt tell the NavMap to merge their ownship contacts with the links data contacts. They just didnt understand why they should have so many stuff on their screen when they exactly knew that a certain Ownship contact was the same contact that is already on the link. They asked for an option to tell the TMA: Take link No.XXXX as a solution for M02. I told them it doesnt work that way but they were just annoyed by having the same ships multiple times on their nav maps and when trying to select a contact that was under another contact (link) they had to scroll in and out alot. They were also confused about the fact that a link contact has a different number for different players, and that made communicating harder.

What they also didnt like was searching the USNI reference for a certain ship, cause the ESM didnt tell em the country origin.

My suggestion is if you have have both your own data and link data, use the link data to confirm what your own sensors are saying and then Drop the link data to keep clutter from building. Or alternatively, use the link to refine their own TMA soluations and then chose "Hide Link Data" to free up clutter. Other than that, its up to them to learn their own methods of keeping things clean and organized..... I use link data only when confirming my own data or only when I'm ready to fire.

I agree with XabbasRus, a lot of DW is taking two or three steps to piece together information, whether than just a one button solution. That and dealing with significan fog-of-war and sensor ambuiguity and information clutter, which most people don't like.

The bugs are a little annoying I agree. Hope that they give it a second try.

[N00be]

How do you make the UUV go active?