R/L Navy gives sim community no love...

Caseck · 07-21-05, 02:08 AM

I tell you. I've just gotta' laugh.

I love you Navy types. You certainly do know how to keep secrets!

Do you realize, we don't even know the nomenclature for the nuclear topredoes US ships "never carried" through the cold war?

We don't know if it was a Mk48 modified, or anything.

We don't even know if it exists.

We have only very sketchy idea of what current sonars are capable of. And even less of what current "Mk48 ADCAP" torpedoes can do. So we only have one torpedo in service right now on our subs? Do you really believe that?

Much less, of how fast our subs go.

Or how deep they can dive.

If you think our nuclear subs can only go 30 kts, you're certainly deluded. The hydrodynamics of WWII allowed the Walther boats to go as fast. (And that was without a nuclear powerplant.)

Hell, I've heard how fast the Nimitz has gone in the past, and you'd all just laugh at me and think I was crazy.

Talk to someone who knows hydrodynamics, and how BIGGER ships require LESS power to move FASTER... That's how it goes...

The capabilities of these weapons systems that patrol our worlds oceans are greater than I can guess at.

Our Navy rules!

S!

--An Army guy

Bellman · 07-21-05, 03:13 AM

Too right.

Got to be that way.

The push for realism is, in most cases, to achieve a believable sim.
Performnce criteria are only relevant within the game.

Enthusiasm tempts us to stray into areas we shouldnt occasionaly but I am sure ( I hope ) the bank tellers
safety screen drops firmly down on those straying fingers.

Bellman.

'Never send to know for whom the bell tolls....'

Caseck · 07-21-05, 09:03 AM

You guys aren't called "the Silent Service" just because your subs are quiet.

It is an impressive display of discipline. Especially considered over time.

It's only sad that because of that very secrecy, very few people outside the military understand what folks in submarine community can do.

Bill Nichols · 07-21-05, 09:09 AM

Call it 'self-preservation'

Caseck · 07-21-05, 10:04 AM

It's funny, people in the US probably know more about OTHER COUNTRIES subs, than what our own are capable of!

That's rich!

Bellman · 07-21-05, 10:42 AM

Hey Caseck,

I know I have this serious fault of diverting to the light side but I have to make an administrative point here'

After finding a certain deterioration in the quality of my aural receptors, nothing that a sassy nurse
armed with a syringe couldnt fix, I was concerned that an increasing weather related alcohol intake was affecting my vision.

First I got Mein Kapitains purple sheep which seemed one step up from pink elephants. Then a couple of weeks back as the revered
administrators of this halowed site upgraded my avator for all of 5 minutes it showed as the GREEN GIANT avator like youres.

I thought I had 'seen things'

Well heck now thats a real relief - I really thought it was Skid Row next.

I got to admit to a real sense of disappointment though when they snatched it back.

Who took this photo of me - are royalties due ?

Some guy was touting for contributions to maintain this site - well listen up out there you "Administrators'
- give me back my avator in perpetuity as the 'wigs' say and I will break open the kids pot pig, just for you.

Bellman · 07-22-05, 01:21 AM

Shucks - The GREEN GIANTS gone now.
Heck - was it there at all ?
What next SEA MONSTERS
I need Shore Leave.
Healthy living.
Wagon.

Caseck · 07-22-05, 01:12 PM

Awww... I lost my "Shore Leave" avatar-guy.

I wonder what it all means?

sonar732 · 07-23-05, 05:56 PM

Casek,

I only wish that more ppl were as understanding of our silence as you are. I'm getting tired of hearing what this game "should" be like in realism. I've mentioned multiple times how we need to give SCS a break because they can't give out too much being a sub-contractor for the U.S. Navy. Let SCS get the game "as real as possible" without taking the rug out from under them regarding future DoD contracts!

Bellman · 07-23-05, 11:56 PM

Well said Sonar - may I second that.

Caseck · 07-24-05, 03:35 PM

Well, its funny you say that because I truly started out in that other camp. I've served in the Army for years, but I don't think I really understood HOW AN ENTIRE FIELD can be so secretive. It's literally an entire branch of the service that is classified. After running into roadblock after roadblock trying to find info, I'm getting the picture.

This is a complete shift for me because there's so little about EQUIPMENT in the Army that's classified, and our contractors blab and blab about our stuff (pitching sales to everyone in the world, literally) all the time, so it's an entirely different thing. And the acute silence from people who work in the undersea warfare field only adds to that frustration, and is initally VERY misleading.

Surface warfare is much less spooky than the sub warfare crowd, and those contractors also seem to be less secretive. We know MUCH more about what an Aegis can do, than any of the 688s.

In many ways it would be easier for someone OUTSIDE the field to do a game like this, because then they'd have no restrictions on guessing about stuff. If they were right, they were right, but they wouldn't have to worry about people looking over their shoulders like I'm SURE SCS does.

The part where this secrecy is hurting the sub-branch in the USN right now, is that because they are so specialized, and their secrecy is so all-encompassing, literally NOBODY in the political world seems to understand what you folks do, and how incredibly important our sub force is to the nations security. You guys HAVE to sell yourselves better to the DoD and the head shed. That's why you guys are getting raped by the BRAC, and it's frustrating even to those of us in the other services that know better. Elected officials simply don't know any better.

They see the money, and they run it like accountants, because the bottom line is the only thing they can understand from an outsiders point of view.

If war kicked off with China tomorrow over Taiwan, I want the Pacific to be like a feeding frenzy when the PRAN assault force hits the water. They should be AFRAID to go in the water. Seaborne invasion should be a non-option to them. The only way for that to work, is if we keep the Navy strong, even when it's NOT the tool of choice for our current conflict. (The war in Iraq/GWOT.)

And if my bird got shot up in N. Korea, I want to be able to make it to water, and know you folks are out there! Even if I'm bobbing around in the water for a while. If I were in deep, I'd rather take a chance on ditching in the ocean than letting those goons get my bird anyway.

Nexus7 · 07-24-05, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonar732

I only wish that more ppl were as understanding of our silence as you are. I'm getting tired of hearing what this game "should" be like in realism. I've mentioned multiple times how we need to give SCS a break because they can't give out too much being a sub-contractor for the U.S. Navy. Let SCS get the game "as real as possible" without taking the rug out from under them regarding future DoD contracts!

I can talk for myself. I've never been in the navy nor have any special knowledge on the real subs. For this reason I'm not bent nor to tehcnical knowledge nor to secrecy bindings when posting in here... I'm just a subsims player.

I undrestand that there could be nearly infinite proposals from a normal player, but still ,if for example I ask why cant we have torpedoes sending back target data it's because it is an obvious feature to me...
Also if I critic the CM's effectiveness i dont think i hurt classified fields nor anyone's feelings stating that this is "Unreal"...

On the other hand, I understand that I can't pretend a personalized or professional simulator for 60$

kgsuarez · 07-24-05, 07:43 PM

Since we are on the subject I would like to express how I feel about the whole secrecy thing. Then maybe someone could explain it all to me...

I don't see any point in all the secrecy concerning the US nuclear subs. Surely during the cold war the Soviets had a pretty good idea of what the American subs were capable of (and vice versa). And nowadays I am sure any possible enemies of the US submarine force know too (and again, vice versa). It seems to me that the secrecy is only putting citizens in the dark. Which is stupid, because if someone really wanted to know they could find out.

Maybe someone will make a naval simulator that uses actual physics. Like the way X-Plane does for aircraft. Then it's just a matter of building the sub in a graphics program and telling it how much drag it has and how much power the reactor gives out. I am sure that even when making the most conservative guesses for the unknowns that you would be surprised by the results.

I am sure that the 688(i) could do 50 kts, and the Seawolf and Virginia class..? Who knows for sure... It can't be much more, there's a limit somewhere.

The torpedoes I am sure are equally fast.

Torpedoes exploding on CMs... well I guess it depends on the kind of equipment and settings on the torpedo. I am also quite positive that the Mark 48 has some kind of system that will allow it to "ignore" CMs.

MaHuJa · 07-24-05, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgsuarez

Torpedoes exploding on CMs... well I guess it depends on the kind of equipment and settings on the torpedo. I am also quite positive that the Mark 48 has some kind of system that will allow it to "ignore" CMs.

The way I understood it, the active CMs created a wall of bubbles that reflected the sound, essentially creating a barrier which sound (specifically, the torpedos pings) could not see beyond. Then, once behind such a barrier, moving out of the torp's path.

Quite different from the way it works in DW.

That way, "ignoring" is a somewhat incorrect word.

Wim Libaers · 07-25-05, 04:47 AM

This has already been mentioned here, and available information indicates that the sub gets information on detected targets from the torpedo, and that the torpedo can detect when it is homing on countermeasures.

07-21-05, 02:08 AM	#1
Caseck Torpedoman Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: CONUS Posts: 116 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	R/L Navy gives sim community no love... I tell you. I've just gotta' laugh. I love you Navy types. You certainly do know how to keep secrets! Do you realize, we don't even know the nomenclature for the nuclear topredoes US ships "never carried" through the cold war? We don't know if it was a Mk48 modified, or anything. We don't even know if it exists. We have only very sketchy idea of what current sonars are capable of. And even less of what current "Mk48 ADCAP" torpedoes can do. So we only have one torpedo in service right now on our subs? Do you really believe that? Much less, of how fast our subs go. Or how deep they can dive. If you think our nuclear subs can only go 30 kts, you're certainly deluded. The hydrodynamics of WWII allowed the Walther boats to go as fast. (And that was without a nuclear powerplant.) Hell, I've heard how fast the Nimitz has gone in the past, and you'd all just laugh at me and think I was crazy. Talk to someone who knows hydrodynamics, and how BIGGER ships require LESS power to move FASTER... That's how it goes... The capabilities of these weapons systems that patrol our worlds oceans are greater than I can guess at. Our Navy rules! S! --An Army guy

07-21-05, 09:09 AM	#4
Bill Nichols Master of Defense Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 1,502 Downloads: 125 Uploads: 0	Call it 'self-preservation' __________________ My Dangerous Waters website:

07-21-05, 03:13 AM	#2
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	Too right. Got to be that way. The push for realism is, in most cases, to achieve a believable sim. Performnce criteria are only relevant within the game. Enthusiasm tempts us to stray into areas we shouldnt occasionaly but I am sure ( I hope ) the bank tellers safety screen drops firmly down on those straying fingers. Bellman. 'Never send to know for whom the bell tolls....'

07-21-05, 09:03 AM	#3
Caseck Torpedoman Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: CONUS Posts: 116 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	You guys aren't called "the Silent Service" just because your subs are quiet. It is an impressive display of discipline. Especially considered over time. It's only sad that because of that very secrecy, very few people outside the military understand what folks in submarine community can do.

07-21-05, 10:04 AM	#5
Caseck Torpedoman Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: CONUS Posts: 116 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	It's funny, people in the US probably know more about OTHER COUNTRIES subs, than what our own are capable of! That's rich!

07-21-05, 10:42 AM	#6
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	Hey Caseck, I know I have this serious fault of diverting to the light side but I have to make an administrative point here' After finding a certain deterioration in the quality of my aural receptors, nothing that a sassy nurse armed with a syringe couldnt fix, I was concerned that an increasing weather related alcohol intake was affecting my vision. First I got Mein Kapitains purple sheep which seemed one step up from pink elephants. Then a couple of weeks back as the revered administrators of this halowed site upgraded my avator for all of 5 minutes it showed as the GREEN GIANT avator like youres. I thought I had 'seen things' Well heck now thats a real relief - I really thought it was Skid Row next. I got to admit to a real sense of disappointment though when they snatched it back. Who took this photo of me - are royalties due ? Some guy was touting for contributions to maintain this site - well listen up out there you "Administrators' - give me back my avator in perpetuity as the 'wigs' say and I will break open the kids pot pig, just for you.

07-22-05, 01:21 AM	#7
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	Shucks - The GREEN GIANTS gone now. Heck - was it there at all ? What next SEA MONSTERS I need Shore Leave. Healthy living. Wagon.

07-22-05, 01:12 PM	#8
Caseck Torpedoman Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: CONUS Posts: 116 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	Awww... I lost my "Shore Leave" avatar-guy. I wonder what it all means?

07-23-05, 05:56 PM	#9
sonar732 The Old Man Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Central MO Posts: 1,562 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Casek, I only wish that more ppl were as understanding of our silence as you are. I'm getting tired of hearing what this game "should" be like in realism. I've mentioned multiple times how we need to give SCS a break because they can't give out too much being a sub-contractor for the U.S. Navy. Let SCS get the game "as real as possible" without taking the rug out from under them regarding future DoD contracts!

07-23-05, 11:56 PM	#10
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	Well said Sonar - may I second that.

07-24-05, 03:35 PM	#11
Caseck Torpedoman Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: CONUS Posts: 116 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	Well, its funny you say that because I truly started out in that other camp. I've served in the Army for years, but I don't think I really understood HOW AN ENTIRE FIELD can be so secretive. It's literally an entire branch of the service that is classified. After running into roadblock after roadblock trying to find info, I'm getting the picture. This is a complete shift for me because there's so little about EQUIPMENT in the Army that's classified, and our contractors blab and blab about our stuff (pitching sales to everyone in the world, literally) all the time, so it's an entirely different thing. And the acute silence from people who work in the undersea warfare field only adds to that frustration, and is initally VERY misleading. Surface warfare is much less spooky than the sub warfare crowd, and those contractors also seem to be less secretive. We know MUCH more about what an Aegis can do, than any of the 688s. In many ways it would be easier for someone OUTSIDE the field to do a game like this, because then they'd have no restrictions on guessing about stuff. If they were right, they were right, but they wouldn't have to worry about people looking over their shoulders like I'm SURE SCS does. The part where this secrecy is hurting the sub-branch in the USN right now, is that because they are so specialized, and their secrecy is so all-encompassing, literally NOBODY in the political world seems to understand what you folks do, and how incredibly important our sub force is to the nations security. You guys HAVE to sell yourselves better to the DoD and the head shed. That's why you guys are getting raped by the BRAC, and it's frustrating even to those of us in the other services that know better. Elected officials simply don't know any better. They see the money, and they run it like accountants, because the bottom line is the only thing they can understand from an outsiders point of view. If war kicked off with China tomorrow over Taiwan, I want the Pacific to be like a feeding frenzy when the PRAN assault force hits the water. They should be AFRAID to go in the water. Seaborne invasion should be a non-option to them. The only way for that to work, is if we keep the Navy strong, even when it's NOT the tool of choice for our current conflict. (The war in Iraq/GWOT.) And if my bird got shot up in N. Korea, I want to be able to make it to water, and know you folks are out there! Even if I'm bobbing around in the water for a while. If I were in deep, I'd rather take a chance on ditching in the ocean than letting those goons get my bird anyway.

07-24-05, 07:43 PM	#13
kgsuarez Planesman Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: USA Posts: 181 Downloads: 28 Uploads: 0	Since we are on the subject I would like to express how I feel about the whole secrecy thing. Then maybe someone could explain it all to me... I don't see any point in all the secrecy concerning the US nuclear subs. Surely during the cold war the Soviets had a pretty good idea of what the American subs were capable of (and vice versa). And nowadays I am sure any possible enemies of the US submarine force know too (and again, vice versa). It seems to me that the secrecy is only putting citizens in the dark. Which is stupid, because if someone really wanted to know they could find out. Maybe someone will make a naval simulator that uses actual physics. Like the way X-Plane does for aircraft. Then it's just a matter of building the sub in a graphics program and telling it how much drag it has and how much power the reactor gives out. I am sure that even when making the most conservative guesses for the unknowns that you would be surprised by the results. I am sure that the 688(i) could do 50 kts, and the Seawolf and Virginia class..? Who knows for sure... It can't be much more, there's a limit somewhere. The torpedoes I am sure are equally fast. Torpedoes exploding on CMs... well I guess it depends on the kind of equipment and settings on the torpedo. I am also quite positive that the Mark 48 has some kind of system that will allow it to "ignore" CMs.

07-25-05, 04:47 AM	#15
Wim Libaers Samurai Navy Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Flanders Posts: 569 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	This has already been mentioned here, and available information indicates that the sub gets information on detected targets from the torpedo, and that the torpedo can detect when it is homing on countermeasures.