Navigation Question

Doolar · 11-15-23, 10:10 AM

Quick Question for you guys. I'm currently in the 1st Flotilla out of Kiel. It's April 1941. Type VII Boat. When headed to the Atlantic, I cut between the ORKNEY ISLANDS and the SHETLAND ISLANDS. I know the risk and I'm fast and careful. Now for the question. Is this the coarse normally taken by U-Boat Captains at this point of the war, or did they navigate around the top of the SHETLAND's ? It looks safer and has deeper waters too. Thanx

Fifi · 11-15-23, 10:41 AM

To me, after the war starting month, they always avoided the straight between Orkney & Shetlands to reach North Atlantic

They turned large at eastern Shetlands were the depth is deep.
To arrive there, they even stay along Norwegian coast from Germany

Hooston · 11-15-23, 04:44 PM

The problem with going further north in game is partly due to the "flat earth" where SH3 is set. In real life getting to the North Western Approaches via Norway and north of the Shetlands was not such a huge extra distance. https://www.greatcirclemap.com/?routes=WVN-BGO-KEF

It may also be the real u-boats were afraid of mines. 92083 mines were laid in the Iceland-Faroes-Orkneys Northern barrage in return for maybe 1 u-boat and certainly several merchant ships. The mines seem to have been concentrated around the Faroes, but the Kriegsmarine would not know that. http://naval-history.net/xGM-Ops-Minelaying.htm

It seems only U63 was lost south of the Shetlands early war https://www.uboat.net/fates/losses/1940.htm, then a bunch of boats during the 1945 inshore campaign. This tends to add weight to the argument they did not go there on passage.

Going close to Scapa Flow ensures air attacks, but in game and even more in real life these are pretty ineffectual in 1939/40.

With GWX there are lots of merchants close to the Scottish coast, but if I return north of the Shetlands early war I often encounter the entire Home Fleet. This only happens when I have no torpedoes left, how did they code that?

VikingGrandad · 11-17-23, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doolar

Quick Question for you guys. I'm currently in the 1st Flotilla out of Kiel. It's April 1941. Type VII Boat. When headed to the Atlantic, I cut between the ORKNEY ISLANDS and the SHETLAND ISLANDS. I know the risk and I'm fast and careful. Now for the question. Is this the coarse normally taken by U-Boat Captains at this point of the war, or did they navigate around the top of the SHETLAND's ? It looks safer and has deeper waters too. Thanx

Looking at patrols of 1st Flotilla Type VII B/C boats operating out of Kiel in the spring of '41 before the flotilla moved to Brest in June of that year, it would seem they all steered well north of the Orkneys and Shetlands - and most even went north of the Faroe islands. Same goes for the few Type VII boats still based in Kiel for a while after June '41 after most had moved to Brest (I think some remained in Kiel for a while in '41 as they were still being commissioned for active duty at the time of the move).

Patrol log maps for 1st Flotilla Type VII boats in 1941:

https://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_3588.html
https://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_3618.html
https://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_3588.html
https://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_3646.html
https://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_4114.html
https://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_4124.html
https://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_4133.html
https://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_4145.html
https://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_4164.html
https://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_4167.html
https://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_4207.html

Doolar · 11-17-23, 01:56 PM

Wow, looks like U204 and 208 really took the "safest" way there.

Hooston · 11-18-23, 07:22 PM

I didn't realise patrol logs were in uboat.net!

In real life the patrol lines across convoy routes and resulting packs required detailed control from BdU. It makes me wonder how much freedom a Kaleun had to choose any of his route and to what extent the control freak Doenitz called the shots. Anyone know?

propbeanie · 11-18-23, 08:33 PM

"Drifting off-course greater than 1000 meters will result in a court martial and a Eastern Front assignment in the Wehrmacht!" but seriously, they had objectives and orders, and would probably have an "advised route", I would imagine, but so long as they played as part of the team, and did not needlessly endanger the boat and crew by attempting to traverse the English Channel, they were probably given relatively free-reign. Results are what counted. There are some books out there on operations, and I"m sure someone "in-the-know" will come along.

Hooston · 11-27-23, 07:36 AM

I've just looked at U204's patrol log. They sank a 16 ton Icelandic (i.e. neutral) fishing boat on 31st May 1941, because it might reveal their position. https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/955.html
Really brings home the stupidity and moral bankruptcy of the regime and how it was inevitable that the evil little Nazi Doenitz would eventually drag the US (and even Brazil!) into the war against Germany.
Glad to say that Kaleun Walter Kell of U204 was killed 6 months later. Really disappointed that Doenitz was able to wriggle out at the end of the war.

propbeanie · 11-27-23, 09:16 AM

I'm not saying that Donutz didn't kiss the fuhrer's ring, or that such incidents committed by commanders were not ruthlessly done, but Donutz's trial was most likely altered at the request of the post-war USN submarine force's request, since the US used similar tactics, and could have been conceivably brought up on charges. Read some of Lockwood's writings for his perspective on the issue.

junkman · 11-27-23, 10:03 AM

Enjoyed the log reports. And just shows I've been using the correct way around to the Atlantic.

pmcmull · 11-27-23, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooston

I've just looked at U204's patrol log. They sank a 16 ton Icelandic (i.e. neutral) fishing boat on 31st May 1941, because it might reveal their position. https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/955.html
Really brings home the stupidity and moral bankruptcy of the regime and how it was inevitable that the evil little Nazi Doenitz would eventually drag the US (and even Brazil!) into the war against Germany.
Glad to say that Kaleun Walter Kell of U204 was killed 6 months later. Really disappointed that Doenitz was able to wriggle out at the end of the war.

The US boats sank sampans and fishing boats during the war too. And mostly for the same reasons - to not get their location reported.

Fluffysheap · 12-07-23, 11:45 AM

It's not controversial that the Nazi regime was morally bankrupt (it's a huge understatement obviously). But as a question of military history... If you are concerned about violation of Icelandic neutrality, perhaps you should consider that the British occupied the country because they were worried that Iceland might support Germany (which it had no plans to do). This happened in 1940, a whole year before this sinking. Iceland might have been legally neutral but was not neutral in practice due to the post occupation collaboration with the British. Iceland was no different from France or Norway except for being smaller and occupied by the other side. As for dragging the US into the war, the US was including its ships in convoys, escorting those convoys and attacking u-boats on sight, and, topically, using its troops to garrison occupied Iceland to relieve the British. You know, the usual neutral country stuff. The Americans even called this "neutrality patrol" even though the US was anything but. Donitz certainly didn't cause this and, in any event, the geopolitical implications of the war were the responsibility of Hitler. The Germans did consider invading Iceland but decided against it. It would have been useless because unlike Norway, Iceland had little to offer except location. After the fall of France it would have been of no use even as a naval base. And with the British control of the ocean surface there would have been no way to supply it.

Hooston · 12-08-23, 06:46 PM

Nasty Nazis

https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval...r-crimes-trial
https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval...admirals-trial
USN hero

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proce...-maru-massacre

Eck comes across as someone who has completely lost the plot. The Chief Engineer and the Doctor have the most interesting reactions.

Morton thought he was doing his duty but was actually mostly killing allies (and not very efficiently, I suspect the aim was deliberately poor).
Donitz had a good lawyer and got to write some typical "ex-Nazi" memoirs.

11-15-23, 10:10 AM	#1
Doolar Expert Shipsinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Baltimore,Md./ CA45 Posts: 914 Downloads: 360 Uploads: 0	Navigation Question Quick Question for you guys. I'm currently in the 1st Flotilla out of Kiel. It's April 1941. Type VII Boat. When headed to the Atlantic, I cut between the ORKNEY ISLANDS and the SHETLAND ISLANDS. I know the risk and I'm fast and careful. Now for the question. Is this the coarse normally taken by U-Boat Captains at this point of the war, or did they navigate around the top of the SHETLAND's ? It looks safer and has deeper waters too. Thanx __________________ ONEALEX 1.53 ARB / NYGM "ENHANCED Steel Coffin Edition" v7.8 DGUI / CCom12 DGUI / WAC 5.2 DGUI / Toyotagt86 v2.3 ARB / GWX3 DGUI / GWX Knight's Cross v1

11-15-23, 10:41 AM	#2
Fifi Navy Seal Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: France Posts: 6,087 Downloads: 465 Uploads: 0	To me, after the war starting month, they always avoided the straight between Orkney & Shetlands to reach North Atlantic They turned large at eastern Shetlands were the depth is deep. To arrive there, they even stay along Norwegian coast from Germany __________________ https://www.mediafire.com/file/rfw2h...N_V7.8.7z/file

11-15-23, 04:44 PM	#3
Hooston 中国水兵 Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 276 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	Flat earthers, swings and roundabouts The problem with going further north in game is partly due to the "flat earth" where SH3 is set. In real life getting to the North Western Approaches via Norway and north of the Shetlands was not such a huge extra distance. https://www.greatcirclemap.com/?routes=WVN-BGO-KEF It may also be the real u-boats were afraid of mines. 92083 mines were laid in the Iceland-Faroes-Orkneys Northern barrage in return for maybe 1 u-boat and certainly several merchant ships. The mines seem to have been concentrated around the Faroes, but the Kriegsmarine would not know that. http://naval-history.net/xGM-Ops-Minelaying.htm It seems only U63 was lost south of the Shetlands early war https://www.uboat.net/fates/losses/1940.htm, then a bunch of boats during the 1945 inshore campaign. This tends to add weight to the argument they did not go there on passage. Going close to Scapa Flow ensures air attacks, but in game and even more in real life these are pretty ineffectual in 1939/40. With GWX there are lots of merchants close to the Scottish coast, but if I return north of the Shetlands early war I often encounter the entire Home Fleet. This only happens when I have no torpedoes left, how did they code that?

11-17-23, 01:56 PM	#5
Doolar Expert Shipsinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Baltimore,Md./ CA45 Posts: 914 Downloads: 360 Uploads: 0	Thank you Wow, looks like U204 and 208 really took the "safest" way there. __________________ ONEALEX 1.53 ARB / NYGM "ENHANCED Steel Coffin Edition" v7.8 DGUI / CCom12 DGUI / WAC 5.2 DGUI / Toyotagt86 v2.3 ARB / GWX3 DGUI / GWX Knight's Cross v1

11-18-23, 08:33 PM	#7
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 10,098 Downloads: 451 Uploads: 2	"Drifting off-course greater than 1000 meters will result in a court martial and a Eastern Front assignment in the Wehrmacht!" but seriously, they had objectives and orders, and would probably have an "advised route", I would imagine, but so long as they played as part of the team, and did not needlessly endanger the boat and crew by attempting to traverse the English Channel, they were probably given relatively free-reign. Results are what counted. There are some books out there on operations, and I"m sure someone "in-the-know" will come along. __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayers" - Jimbuna

11-18-23, 07:22 PM	#6
Hooston 中国水兵 Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 276 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	I didn't realise patrol logs were in uboat.net! In real life the patrol lines across convoy routes and resulting packs required detailed control from BdU. It makes me wonder how much freedom a Kaleun had to choose any of his route and to what extent the control freak Doenitz called the shots. Anyone know?

11-27-23, 07:36 AM	#8
Hooston 中国水兵 Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 276 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	Evil people I've just looked at U204's patrol log. They sank a 16 ton Icelandic (i.e. neutral) fishing boat on 31st May 1941, because it might reveal their position. https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/955.html Really brings home the stupidity and moral bankruptcy of the regime and how it was inevitable that the evil little Nazi Doenitz would eventually drag the US (and even Brazil!) into the war against Germany. Glad to say that Kaleun Walter Kell of U204 was killed 6 months later. Really disappointed that Doenitz was able to wriggle out at the end of the war.

11-27-23, 09:16 AM	#9
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 10,098 Downloads: 451 Uploads: 2	I'm not saying that Donutz didn't kiss the fuhrer's ring, or that such incidents committed by commanders were not ruthlessly done, but Donutz's trial was most likely altered at the request of the post-war USN submarine force's request, since the US used similar tactics, and could have been conceivably brought up on charges. Read some of Lockwood's writings for his perspective on the issue. __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayers" - Jimbuna

11-27-23, 10:03 AM	#10
junkman Seaman Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Maryland Posts: 36 Downloads: 157 Uploads: 0	Enjoyed the log reports. And just shows I've been using the correct way around to the Atlantic.

12-07-23, 11:45 AM	#12
Fluffysheap Bosun Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 63 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	It's not controversial that the Nazi regime was morally bankrupt (it's a huge understatement obviously). But as a question of military history... If you are concerned about violation of Icelandic neutrality, perhaps you should consider that the British occupied the country because they were worried that Iceland might support Germany (which it had no plans to do). This happened in 1940, a whole year before this sinking. Iceland might have been legally neutral but was not neutral in practice due to the post occupation collaboration with the British. Iceland was no different from France or Norway except for being smaller and occupied by the other side. As for dragging the US into the war, the US was including its ships in convoys, escorting those convoys and attacking u-boats on sight, and, topically, using its troops to garrison occupied Iceland to relieve the British. You know, the usual neutral country stuff. The Americans even called this "neutrality patrol" even though the US was anything but. Donitz certainly didn't cause this and, in any event, the geopolitical implications of the war were the responsibility of Hitler. The Germans did consider invading Iceland but decided against it. It would have been useless because unlike Norway, Iceland had little to offer except location. After the fall of France it would have been of no use even as a naval base. And with the British control of the ocean surface there would have been no way to supply it.

12-08-23, 06:46 PM	#13
Hooston 中国水兵 Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 276 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	War heroes Nasty Nazis https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval...r-crimes-trial https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval...admirals-trial USN hero https://www.usni.org/magazines/proce...-maru-massacre Eck comes across as someone who has completely lost the plot. The Chief Engineer and the Doctor have the most interesting reactions. Morton thought he was doing his duty but was actually mostly killing allies (and not very efficiently, I suspect the aim was deliberately poor). Donitz had a good lawyer and got to write some typical "ex-Nazi" memoirs.