North Korea: "As Ye sow..."

Eichhörnchen · 10-31-17, 01:53 PM

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/480608...atest-updates/

Oberon · 10-31-17, 02:09 PM

Yeah, I think they may have broken their mountain after that H bomb test. Still, it's the DPRK, lives are cheap, the program will continue.

mapuc · 10-31-17, 02:27 PM

Some memory popped up when I read this

Quote:

The disaster has prompted fears of a massive radioactive leak which could spark a Chernobyl- or Fukushima-style disaster

Markus

Oberon · 10-31-17, 03:30 PM

Naaah.

Not enough radiation for that. Worse case scenario perhaps something along the lines of Three Mile Island.

Aktungbby · 10-31-17, 04:22 PM

Quote:

The Punggye-ri test site in North Korea is carved deep into Mount Mantap, as these file images show

They'll have to rename it it Mt Mantrap

Oberon · 10-31-17, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

They'll have to rename it it Mt Mantrap

eddie · 10-31-17, 08:09 PM

Probably forced labor is being used in those tunnels anyway. Kim wouldn't care.

Jimbuna · 11-01-17, 08:33 AM

Some interesting comments after the article. This one in particular stood out:

Quote:

Radiation leak? Maybe the fat boy with the silly haircut will be irradiated and begin to glow in the dark. That should make it so much easier for the snipers to take him out!!!

STEED · 11-01-17, 11:59 AM

If the mountain fell on him and his whole rotten gang plenty would smile.

Reece · 11-01-17, 07:20 PM

I'd throw a party STEED!!

Peter Cremer · 11-01-17, 08:06 PM

With a little good luck, any radiation leak will blow into China. I really don't believe that N.K. has the technology or the people to build the bombs they have been "testing". China has supplied all of it. N.K. has gone from having nothing to having operational ICBM's in such a short time, how else did they do it?

Oberon · 11-01-17, 08:44 PM

By diverting nearly all of their resources from everything else into the project, by stealing information from their allies and enemies, by searching on the internet (yes really).

When the first nation does it, it's difficult, by the time that the ninth does it, it's considerably easier. The amount of information available in both open source and secret files is much greater, which means there is a higher chance of obtaining it.

When you consider that your very survival is on the line, you'd be surprised what a nation can do.

Delgard · 11-02-17, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

By diverting nearly all of their resources from everything else into the project, by stealing information from their allies and enemies, by searching on the internet (yes really).

When the first nation does it, it's difficult, by the time that the ninth does it, it's considerably easier. The amount of information available in both open source and secret files is much greater, which means there is a higher chance of obtaining it.

When you consider that your very survival is on the line, you'd be surprised what a nation can do.

I look back to the beginnings of WWII. At first the U.S. was supplying the U.K., but then the Axis powers became too powerful.

After the bombing of Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto, who had spent a good amount of time in the U.S., said that japan had awakened a sleeping giant. Seven months later the U.S. was striking at Japan's heartland, then severely crippled their navy only two months later.

Their was such pride and loyalty, though. The American nation was much more cohesive then.

Back to the original point; I wonder what Syria, Iran and some other States have given to assist the North Koreans.

Would China, particularly in the past, given NK some technology so as to keep a physical buffer between them and the highly capitalist South Koreans?

ikalugin · 11-02-17, 08:22 AM

That would depend on how far back into the past you would go.

In recent times I would say that PRC mostly deployed some of it's ISR assets (ie ground based radar) to support DPRK's security operations.

Oberon · 11-02-17, 08:23 AM

Relations between the DPRK and China have been steadily declining since the 2000s, to the point that it's not unreasonable to think that a few of those North Korean missiles have Chinese destinations on them. That's not to say that some transfers haven't taken place, but in a lot of instances they have been done through the black market rather than directly, and it's not impossible that Beijing had little to no idea exactly what was being transferred, or they've sold something to North Korea for civilian usage and it's been illegally turned to military use.
The most recent and relevant example of this would be this:

Which is a truck designed for hauling timber, but has since found itself hauling logs of a different kind:

But in regards to actual missile technology, that's a little harder to obtain, not impossible mind, but harder. A lot of the tech that North Korea is using right now was obtained back in the late 1990s early 2000s during the fall of the Soviet Union. Their submarines come from ten old Golf SSBs that they got for 'scrapping' in 1993 from Russia. China also got one around the same time, which they used for SLBM designing and testing. The North Korean missiles come from old Russian designs, with some technology potentially stolen from a Ukrainian factory, but we're not so sure about that one yet. There's a possibility that the DPRK got an intact R-27 SLBM from Russia, probably around the time that the Soviet Union collapsed, and have been working on making designs based on what they've learned from it. Understand that none of this (aside from the Golf SSBs) is likely done with the agreement of the states that the DPRK is getting the stuff from, especially when it comes to the little stuff, coils of wire, electronics, that kind of thing. It'll all be done through shell companies and then it'll be shipped to the border between China and the DPRK and will just 'go missing' like so much other stuff around there. The amount of corruption in the border states is pretty damn high because the money flows pretty easily and everyone wants to be a rich man.
In regards to their nuclear stuff, you've got to look to Pakistan for that, not right now of course, but back in the 1990s the DPRK sent some guys over to Islamabad for a while and they got a lot of learning from Pakistans top nuclear scientists. It's also not impossible that the DPRK has some moles or some friendly people in the Chinese nuclear program, after all there are still some hardline Communists in the PRC who would look on the DPRK like Mao looked on it. But for the likes of Xi Jinping, the DPRK is an embarrasment and a constant thorn in their side. However, geographically it's a useful thorn and one that stops the US from being on their doorstep.
The PRC recently had a chat with South Korea, they've been agreeing to normalise relations again after they recently soured a bit because of the THAAD deployment. Trade between Seoul and Beijing is worth a lot, probably more so than trade between Pyongyang and Beijing. So one shouldn't assume that the PRC is always going to be on the DPRKs side...North Korea certainly doesn't, which is why they've conducted at least two missile tests on days which the PRC have been trying to conduct their own great schemes. Xi Jinpings great Belt and Road vision announcement...which was completely overshadowed when the DPRK test fired its new Hwasong-12 IRBM, and then the BRICs meeting which was lost in the lower headlines after the DPRK detonated its first H-bomb.
It's a very awkward situation, Beijing is trying to keep things cordial, but the fact that Xi and Kim haven't met face to face in the five years that Xi has been in power. Kim Jong-il went to China at least two or three times by train, and visited Russia about the same. Jong-un hasn't left the DPRK since he took office AFAIK.
Now, Iran on the other hand, the DPRK and Iran have had quite a good working relationship when it comes to missile technology, if you compare missiles that the two nations own you'll see a lot of similarities. It's not unreasonable to assume that North Korean nuclear technicians were also involved in the Iranian program until it recently froze. It would make a lot of sense.

So, there is some outside involvement in the DPRKs programs, but probably not in the ways that most people assume.

10-31-17, 01:53 PM	#1
Eichhörnchen Starte das Auto Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: The Fens Posts: 17,429 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	North Korea: "As Ye sow..." https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/480608...atest-updates/ __________________

10-31-17, 08:09 PM	#7
eddie Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,023 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	Probably forced labor is being used in those tunnels anyway. Kim wouldn't care. __________________ Don't mistake my kindness for weakness. I'm kind to everyone, but when someone is unkind to me, weak is not what you are going to remember about me. Al Capone

11-01-17, 11:59 AM	#9
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	If the mountain fell on him and his whole rotten gang plenty would smile. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

11-01-17, 07:20 PM	#10
Reece CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Down Under Posts: 34,751 Downloads: 171 Uploads: 0	I'd throw a party STEED!! __________________ *Sub captains go down with their ship!*

11-02-17, 08:22 AM	#14
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	That would depend on how far back into the past you would go. In recent times I would say that PRC mostly deployed some of it's ISR assets (ie ground based radar) to support DPRK's security operations. __________________ Grumpy as always.

10-31-17, 02:09 PM	#2
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Yeah, I think they may have broken their mountain after that H bomb test. Still, it's the DPRK, lives are cheap, the program will continue.

10-31-17, 03:30 PM	#4
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Naaah. Not enough radiation for that. Worse case scenario perhaps something along the lines of Three Mile Island.

11-01-17, 08:06 PM	#11
Peter Cremer Machinist's Mate Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Usually in the past.... Posts: 121 Downloads: 144 Uploads: 0	With a little good luck, any radiation leak will blow into China. I really don't believe that N.K. has the technology or the people to build the bombs they have been "testing". China has supplied all of it. N.K. has gone from having nothing to having operational ICBM's in such a short time, how else did they do it?

11-01-17, 08:44 PM	#12
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	By diverting nearly all of their resources from everything else into the project, by stealing information from their allies and enemies, by searching on the internet (yes really). When the first nation does it, it's difficult, by the time that the ninth does it, it's considerably easier. The amount of information available in both open source and secret files is much greater, which means there is a higher chance of obtaining it. When you consider that your very survival is on the line, you'd be surprised what a nation can do.

11-02-17, 08:23 AM	#15
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Relations between the DPRK and China have been steadily declining since the 2000s, to the point that it's not unreasonable to think that a few of those North Korean missiles have Chinese destinations on them. That's not to say that some transfers haven't taken place, but in a lot of instances they have been done through the black market rather than directly, and it's not impossible that Beijing had little to no idea exactly what was being transferred, or they've sold something to North Korea for civilian usage and it's been illegally turned to military use. The most recent and relevant example of this would be this: Which is a truck designed for hauling timber, but has since found itself hauling logs of a different kind: But in regards to actual missile technology, that's a little harder to obtain, not impossible mind, but harder. A lot of the tech that North Korea is using right now was obtained back in the late 1990s early 2000s during the fall of the Soviet Union. Their submarines come from ten old Golf SSBs that they got for 'scrapping' in 1993 from Russia. China also got one around the same time, which they used for SLBM designing and testing. The North Korean missiles come from old Russian designs, with some technology potentially stolen from a Ukrainian factory, but we're not so sure about that one yet. There's a possibility that the DPRK got an intact R-27 SLBM from Russia, probably around the time that the Soviet Union collapsed, and have been working on making designs based on what they've learned from it. Understand that none of this (aside from the Golf SSBs) is likely done with the agreement of the states that the DPRK is getting the stuff from, especially when it comes to the little stuff, coils of wire, electronics, that kind of thing. It'll all be done through shell companies and then it'll be shipped to the border between China and the DPRK and will just 'go missing' like so much other stuff around there. The amount of corruption in the border states is pretty damn high because the money flows pretty easily and everyone wants to be a rich man. In regards to their nuclear stuff, you've got to look to Pakistan for that, not right now of course, but back in the 1990s the DPRK sent some guys over to Islamabad for a while and they got a lot of learning from Pakistans top nuclear scientists. It's also not impossible that the DPRK has some moles or some friendly people in the Chinese nuclear program, after all there are still some hardline Communists in the PRC who would look on the DPRK like Mao looked on it. But for the likes of Xi Jinping, the DPRK is an embarrasment and a constant thorn in their side. However, geographically it's a useful thorn and one that stops the US from being on their doorstep. The PRC recently had a chat with South Korea, they've been agreeing to normalise relations again after they recently soured a bit because of the THAAD deployment. Trade between Seoul and Beijing is worth a lot, probably more so than trade between Pyongyang and Beijing. So one shouldn't assume that the PRC is always going to be on the DPRKs side...North Korea certainly doesn't, which is why they've conducted at least two missile tests on days which the PRC have been trying to conduct their own great schemes. Xi Jinpings great Belt and Road vision announcement...which was completely overshadowed when the DPRK test fired its new Hwasong-12 IRBM, and then the BRICs meeting which was lost in the lower headlines after the DPRK detonated its first H-bomb. It's a very awkward situation, Beijing is trying to keep things cordial, but the fact that Xi and Kim haven't met face to face in the five years that Xi has been in power. Kim Jong-il went to China at least two or three times by train, and visited Russia about the same. Jong-un hasn't left the DPRK since he took office AFAIK. Now, Iran on the other hand, the DPRK and Iran have had quite a good working relationship when it comes to missile technology, if you compare missiles that the two nations own you'll see a lot of similarities. It's not unreasonable to assume that North Korean nuclear technicians were also involved in the Iranian program until it recently froze. It would make a lot of sense. So, there is some outside involvement in the DPRKs programs, but probably not in the ways that most people assume.