Targeting ships that are changing direction

[lukterran]

I was wondering what other sub captains do when they are trying to target and calculate firing solutions on ships that are changing directions?

Personally, it frustrates me because all the AoB calculations and speeds etc... go out the window and I am left offsetting torpedo spread angles to compensate for a bad solution. Best guessing where the ships course will take it when the torp arrives.

When the warships are doing their zig zag maneuvers I find that I need to be very close and firing torps just when they just beginning a new turn. But still sometimes I find that I'm missing shots that should be much easier.

Is there a way to time distance, direction and speed between turns to compute where the torp should really being aiming to land a good hit?

[Rockin Robbins]

What's your game setup, Luke? Have you been spotted?

[lukterran]

Just running 1.5 and OTC.

I'm not currently attacking anyone, but I would be interested to know both for methods, when your sub is spotted and when you just have a paranoid TF that likes to continually change course.

Like I said, I can calculate a perfect firing solution when everything is normal and the convoy is on a steady course (I can hit them from 8k out, at a depth of 80 feet and without a periscope if I felt so inclined during those conditions when the convoy is just running straight and steady). However, all my number crunching goes out the window when I have to switch to hitting targets that are playing the zigzag games.

Then I am left estimating speeds, angles and possible locations the ship will be in its "Z" turns. So I rely on coming up with a solution and having to guess where to change the torp shot should be offset based on where I think the ship will be in the turn.

So I am thinking others have better methods.

[Rockin Robbins]

My method is to back off until they calm down and become nice compliant ducks in a row. After all, while they are running in circles, dancing and shouting, a few of the might just run into each other and save me a torpedo or two. Damaged ships are easier to shoot and sink!

[Armistead]

In this game actual course changes are rare in a group, although TMO does use them about 10 nms. What happens is if you're spotted, then zig zag along the same course and almost always slow down, sometimes they all scatter at different speeds which is more realistic. I just get speed, course for AOB and shoot a spread of 3 front to stern unless a capital ship...shoot them all. With practice u can sort of time the zig if close enough and you learn to shoot by the wire guessing where it's gonna be.

[Crannogman]

I usually treat it as though the ship is traveling along 2 parallel courses and giving equal time to each. I try to base my target solution upon the closer track, and accept that the ship's effective speed is different from its raw speed thru the water. Of course, you have to time it for the ship to be on that track when the torpedoes get there. IRL this wouldn't work b/c the zigs are more random, but the game's mechanics in this regard are quite predictable

[Barkerov]

Because they have an underlying course and speed that they follow with some zig zagging thrown in I just observe for longer. After a while I can calculate their average speed in the direction they are zig zagging. It takes longer to determine but I think its your best chance for a hit.

[Gibus]

Bonjour,

Personally, I use the tracking of the target with the GSP and I constantly updates the solution, according to the evolutions of the target (speed and change of direction). Also I use "offset angle" for final adjustments.
Of course, to get to that I play with the contacts on the map because I'm not good enough to play without them.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Armistead

In this game actual course changes are rare in a group, although TMO does use them about 10 nms. What happens is if you're spotted, then zig zag along the same course and almost always slow down, sometimes they all scatter at different speeds which is more realistic. I just get speed, course for AOB and shoot a spread of 3 front to stern unless a capital ship...shoot them all. With practice u can sort of time the zig if close enough and you learn to shoot by the wire guessing where it's gonna be.

But once you are sighted then zigging becomes random and frequent. The convoy will scatter and your job becomes to decide whether to fill the water with torpedoes to ensure a couple of hits or just to wait the 30 minutes or an hour for them to calm down, reform the convoy and let you be more efficient with your torpedoes.

That's why my deal is that waiting an hour is better than schlepping two weeks back to port for more torpedoes. Yes, you can do spreads and hit them but the cost just doesn't make sense.

[cdragon]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

But once you are sighted then zigging becomes random and frequent. The convoy will scatter and your job becomes to decide whether to fill the water with torpedoes to ensure a couple of hits or just to wait the 30 minutes or an hour for them to calm down, reform the convoy and let you be more efficient with your torpedoes.

That's why my deal is that waiting an hour is better than schlepping two weeks back to port for more torpedoes. Yes, you can do spreads and hit them but the cost just doesn't make sense.

and 30 minutes is at least as long as it takes me to evade the escorts, sneak back out to you-can't-see-me-but-I-can-see-you range and race ahead to set up again. Although, you'd think by the third time i've done this to the same convoy they'd learn...

[lukterran]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

But once you are sighted then zigging becomes random and frequent. The convoy will scatter and your job becomes to decide whether to fill the water with torpedoes to ensure a couple of hits or just to wait the 30 minutes or an hour for them to calm down, reform the convoy and let you be more efficient with your torpedoes.

That's why my deal is that waiting an hour is better than schlepping two weeks back to port for more torpedoes. Yes, you can do spreads and hit them but the cost just doesn't make sense.

I seems like the only legitimate method suggested so far to conserving torpedoes and not just "best guessing" firing solutions.

I didn't know if someone actually had come up with a method by actually taking readings at certain times and come up with a solution to solve this problem.

Something like this is what the SUBMARINE TORPEDO FIRE CONTROL MANUAL


https://gyazo.com/e5cb61f4608620276ec50f122067b51d

[max-peck]

A wild assed guess is not the way to sink these ships.
There is a good way, depending on what they are actually doing

First, we have to decide what you mean by zig zag

In the first instance, a ship or convoy will typically travel 10-20nm in one direction, then they will all turn to a new bearing for another 10-20nm
In this case observation and planning will put you in a good attack position.

However, I do not think you are talking about this case.
I think you are talking about the case when you have the convoys bearing and speed figured out, and the they panic and go slightly mad.

In this case, they do not zig zag as such, they do something called constant helming.

This looks like a nightmare to target, because the AOB is constantly changing.
But if you remember a few things, you can consistently get good hits in.

In the below example the red line is what you see the enemy ship doing.

See anything interesting about this diagram?



Excuse the poor paint image, it is late and I have had a few beers

The red line is what you see the Japanese ship doing, but - and this is the key - he is doing it along a base course.

Treat this like any other target, and start plotting again.

For example, I would plot the following, over about 5 minutes



The three minute rule still applies in this case, because rather than trying to find out the ships absolute speed, you are trying to find out its speed along its base course.


Although to be honest with you, I would rather plot it for 5-10 minutes and use the nomograph to get the speed. In this situstion using just 3 minutes could be a bit unreliable!




It will take a bit longer than usual for a good solution (I go for 5-10 minutes), but treating the ship as if it is travelling along the base course will usually give you a pretty good solution.

Special Case


What do I do if I am just about to fire and they get freaky?

This has happened to me so many times

The Japanese ship is just about to cross my periscope and something freaks them out and they start constant helming. Either the ship sees my periscope, or one of the escorts detects me.

I have come up with a good rule of thumb for these circumstances.

Keep your AOB/enemy ship course the same, and make your solution speed 2/3 of what it was before they freaked out.
I use this a lot, and get hits more often that I get misses.

Hope this helps

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

But once you are sighted then zigging becomes random and frequent. The convoy will scatter and your job becomes to decide whether to fill the water with torpedoes to ensure a couple of hits or just to wait the 30 minutes or an hour for them to calm down, reform the convoy and let you be more efficient with your torpedoes.

That's why my deal is that waiting an hour is better than schlepping two weeks back to port for more torpedoes. Yes, you can do spreads and hit them but the cost just doesn't make sense.

Much depends, most the time they just go into a helming pattern, not really a zig and course remains the same and they slow down. I always use the same AOB on the wheel as the course relative to the sub and have never had a problem hitting them while they helm. Obvious much depends if they've sensed me in some fashion and what the escorts are doing, not gonna attack while escorts are dropping for sure. I always shoot by the wire and it works well, seldom miss.