70th anniversary of atomic bombing of Hiroshima

[Commander Wallace]

August 6th, 1945, 8:15 local time, a atomic bomb was dropped from the B-29 bomber Enola Gay on the city of Hiroshima, killing thousands. This date ushered in the nuclear age as both a weapon and as a means of propulsion and peaceful use of generating electricity.

People of Japan marked the solemn 70th anniversary along with delegates of 100 countries. opinions are still divided over whether its deadly destruction was justified.


Let us hope atomic / nuclear weapons are never used in anger again.

[Onkel Neal]

Aye, let's hope that will never happen again.

[BossMark]

^^
Yes never again....

[ikalugin]

Let the nuclear weapons be perfect weapons - the weapons so terrifying that they are never used.

[Stealhead]

ikalugin;2334378]Let the nuclear weapons be perfect weapons - the weapons so terrifying that they are never used.[/QUOTE]

Our sides came within a breath a few times. 1983 was extremely close closer than the Cuban Missile Crisis. I can't recall the Soviet missile commanders name who revived the launch alerts but felt certain that they where incorrect and did not send the alert further. He was right it was not Minute Man missiles but the sun rays fooling the satellite. He based his choice on the fact that he felt the US would launch a full strike and not a handful and on the fact that he had previously seen the detection glitch before.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

I can't recall the Soviet missile commanders name who revived the launch alerts but felt certain that they where incorrect and did not send the alert further.

Lieutenant colonel Stanislav Petrov.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_S...alarm_incident

[bismark141]

I don't know... On the one hand, i see all the invasion evidence and all the reasons for believing it was right, and on the other, it feels like a monstrous act of cruelty. I just don't know...

[Catfish]

Well.. cities as legitimate military targets?
IMHO bombing any civilian target or threaten to do so, is taking civilians as hostages.
There is almost no city which would not be a legitimate military target nowadays, from chocolate bars to ball bearings, all help to support the evil enemy, right?

So London was also a legitimate target, for all those ammunition factories, headquarters a.s.o. in WWI, and II ?
Ironically, the bombing of civilians in WW2 began with a tragic error, inviting Churchill to do what he and the military wanted to do all along. The order or parole sent to the armed forces was "Total Germany", which meant the declaration of a total war, right from the beginning.

On the other hand as things developed, such bombings of civilians would have happened sooner or later anyway, after the declaration of war. They had already taken place in WW1.. (started with the french i think though i may be wrong, to bombing cities in the Ruhr area, Friedrichshafen, and then, of course, England), and especially the german bombing raids in Poland at the begining of WWII.
You cannot see the bombing between England and Germany, without looking at Poland.

They did it first, so we are just doing what they did. Justification, not much better morally, but a reason.


As i said before, there were political reasons to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki and maybe rightly so, to prevent more dying, but imho the military really wanted to try out their new toys (as Einstein wrote) and see the real effect. And we should not forget that japanese people were effectively dehumanized, in propaganda. Not too much people protesting, if the population knew about it at all.
Real military reasons to bomb a city's population? I doubt it.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Ironically, the bombing of civilians in WW2 began with a tragic error, inviting Churchill to do what he and the military wanted to do all along.

Incorrect, the Luftwaffe was bombing civilians long before London.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombin...n_World_War_II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica

Oh, and the first bombing of a city, was from a German Zeppelin onto the city of Liege on the 6th August 1914.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Incorrect, the Luftwaffe was bombing civilians long before London.

Yes, i mentioned that further down, however here i meant the bombings solely between England, and Germany. This is why i wrote you cannot see these bombings without looking at Poland (and Guernica).
But the bomb dropping on houses at London near the harbour by a Ju87, was done unintentionally. I am sure either side would have soon found another pretext though.

Oh, and the first bombing of a city, was from a German Zeppelin onto the city of Liege on the 6th August 1914.

Oh, yes: http://www.luftfahrtarchiv-koeln.de/...f_Luettich.htm
Germany was the only power at that time, to have a possibility to do that at all. The Entente would certainly have held back later with their bombings, had not Germany bombed Liège.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Yes, i mentioned that further down, however here i meant the bombings solely between England, and Germany. This is why i wrote you cannot see these bombings without looking at Poland (and Guernica).
But the bomb dropping on houses at London near the harbour by a Ju87, was done unintentionally. I am sure either side would have soon found another pretext though.

I believe by then the Ju87s weren't in the battle because they'd be shredded so badly. IIRC it was one of the big three level bombers (Do-17, Ju-88 or He-111) that bombed London by mistake whilst looking for Croydon airfield.
That being said, both sides were bombing industrial targets up until 1942, it's just that the method of bombing meant that civilian targets were hit as well. However, like we've both seen, the first to actually deliberately target civilian populace was the Luftwaffe...in Europe anyway. Pretty sure the Japanese were bombing cities, towns, villages, anything that moved in China pretty much from the start.

Oh, yes: http://www.luftfahrtarchiv-koeln.de/...f_Luettich.htm
Germany was the only power at that time, to have a possibility to do that at all. The Entente would certainly have held back later with their bombings, had not Germany bombed Liège.

Was I arguing that? Just pointing out that it wasn't the French that started the bombing, although they did have one of the first official strategic bombing wings, but the Germans had the first unofficial bombing wing, the 'Ostend Carrier Pigeon Detachment' which was formed within the first month of the war, whereas the French 'Group de Bombardment No. 1' was created in September 1914. The first Entente bombing of a city, was conducted by GB1 in December 1914.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strate...ng_World_War_I

[Betonov]

Hiroshima was a war crime, Nagasaki was a war crime, London bombings was awar crime, Dresden bombings was a war crime, the sacrifice of Coventry was a war crime, firebombing Tokyo was a war crime, Katyn forest was a war crime, Auscwitz was a war crime, Japaneese occupation of China was a war crime, German retaliation against resistance was a war crime, resistance no prisoner policy was a war crime, Dražgoše was a war crime....

WAR IS A CRIME

But I wish it was as simple as that.
We will sooner leave this behind if we just accept that it was wrong but done.
That's it. Shamefull display of violence and disregard for human life that was done and the only thing that can be done about it is not being repeated.

And not to go on a moral crusade here, I should be honest and say i'd done the same. If I can win the war with fever of my losses but at a great cost to the enemies nation, I'd do it. The people gave me a mandate to serve and protect and I'd do it even if I have to damn my soul.

[Oberon]

Coming back to the Blitz, briefly, Catfish does have a small point, although I don't think he realised it.

Initially, London targets outside of airfields was off bounds, on orders by Hitler, I think the two main reasons for this was fear of retaliation since he knew that the RAF had its own dedicated strategic bombing wing which was protected by the English Channel, so unlike the French strategic bombing wing (which wasn't that brilliant, tbh) it couldn't have its airfields overrun, and the second main reason was that it wasn't necessary to the goal of destroying the RAF. The main targets were RAF airfields, and Kent infrastructure as a prelude to the infamous sea mammal.
In return, the RAF was bombing primarily coastal cities along the French and German coastline as well as industrial targets in the Ruhr. Then came the famous Croydon cock-up, and as a response Bomber Command went after Tempelhof airfield in Berlin. The damage was minimal, but it made the Luftwaffe change targets from RAF airfields to London.
This much most people know, but one must take a look at London to see what the Luftwaffe were after. Fortunately, we have a device for that:

http://bombsight.org/#15/51.5050/-0.0900

Now, it's often said that the East End of London suffered the worst in the Blitz and it's not incorrect, because the East End were the primary compenents of Londons industry were located. Gas stations, the docklands, railway yards, it was all around there, and it was all bombed on a regular occasion throughout the Blitz. The other targets were mainly symbolic at first, and usually the bombs missed. Generally speaking though, the Luftwaffes targets were industrial in nature, but bombing accuracy as it was in 1940 meant that the factories plus everything around them were hit.
Even Coventry, the infamous attack which destroyed the cathedral, the main targets were industrial in nature, but since it was done at night and with incendiaries, then accuracy was minimal. Likewise the RAF raids on Germany were aimed at industry and generally failed miserably at achieving anything of value.
So, as the wikipedia article on the Blitz puts it:

Although official German air doctrine did target civilian morale, it did not espouse the attacking of civilians directly. It hoped to destroy morale by destroying the enemy's factories and public utilities as well as its food stocks (by attacking shipping). Nevertheless, its official opposition to attacks on civilians became an increasingly moot point when large-scale raids were conducted in November and December 1940.

The Luftwaffe switched from trying to accurately bomb industrial targets to just blanketing the whole area with bombs and hoping that one of them actually hit the target. If the homes of industrial workers were hit, then that was all the better too since it would help disrupt industrial activity.

The RAF took a not dissimilar objective in their attacks against coastal cities and industrial targets in the Ruhr, but officially was not aiming against clusters of civilian housing until 1942 and the Raid on Lubeck.
1942 was when things changed, 'Bomber' Harris became head of Bomber Command, and the 'Area Bombing Directive' was issued, and RAF Bomber Command decided to go down the same failed route as the Luftwaffe had tried. As a result the Luftwaffe launched their Baedeker Blitz which focused on cultural rather than industrial targets, but with most of the Luftwaffe tied up in the Soviet Union it didn't really have much of an effect.

Personally, I think that Strategic bombing of cities in an attempt to undermine civilian morale was a pointless and failed objective. Even trying to bomb industries in an accurate manner was a difficult proposition but we were working on methods to increase night bombing accuracy and had more effort been put into them and the Pathfinder force then we might have been able to avoid the whole tactic of flattening entire cities just to destroy twelve factories, thus giving the enemy free propaganda.

Still, as Betonov put it, war is a crime, a crime against humanity, and sadly that's a lesson that we still haven't fully learnt as a race.