MESS ATTENDANT TRAINING AND SKILLS IN A FLEET BOAT

SeaviewSkipper · 02-01-15, 10:20 AM

Hi everyone. I was wondering if any of you know what the mess attendants in WWII Fleet boats were trained in, other than their serving duties. I've done some Google searches, but can't find the information. I know they had damage control training, but that's about it. With all of the WWII submarine books I've read over the years I've encountered precious little about the "messboys".
In the movie U-571, the mess attendant "Eddie" is able to helm the boat and do other control-room duties once they're stranded on U-571. Is that historically accurate, or were they being politically correct because Eddie was black? Thanks. Jeff

merc4ulfate · 02-01-15, 03:19 PM

COOKS AND ASSISTANTS

Here you go friend

They volunteered and got the billet for a cook or baker.

Most were not trained in anything other than normal boot camp and damage control. Some volunteered to learn other duties at sea.

GALLEY LIFE

COMMAND STRUCTURE

Hambone307 · 02-02-15, 09:27 AM

Very good read!

SeaviewSkipper · 02-02-15, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

COOKS AND ASSISTANTS

Here you go friend

They volunteered and got the billet for a cook or baker.

Most were not trained in anything other than normal boot camp and damage control. Some volunteered to learn other duties at sea.

GALLEY LIFE

COMMAND STRUCTURE

Thanks a lot for the links. I hadn't seen the first one, but have all of the Pampanito web site pages saved as PDF files.
So you're basically saying that it would be unlikely for a mess attendant to have the required knowledge to effectively steer the boat, operate the planes, or otherwise aid in the control of the boat. Is that right?

CaptBones · 02-05-15, 04:38 PM

There seems to be a lot of misinformation and misinterpretation of information here.

First, let’s clarify what a “Mess Attendant” is in the WWII USN; he is not a “cook” or a “baker”, he would most likely be a non-rated Seaman or Fireman. You ask, “what does that mean?”

It isn’t really difficult, but it also isn’t that straightforward. Enlisted personnel in the U.S. Navy generally have a “rate” and may have a “rating”…only officers have “rank.” Personnel in pay grades E-1 (Seaman Recruit [SR], Fireman Recruit [FR]) and E-2 (Seaman Apprentice [SA], and Fireman Apprentice [FA]) are “non-rated”, while E-3’s (Seaman [SN] and Fireman [FN]) may be rated and in that case they are called “strikers”, indicating that they are pursuing or “striking” for a rating. BTW, there are other E-1 through E-3 non-rates and strikers, such as Airmen and Corpsmen; I merely limited the discussion to the two that would be part of a submarine crew.

“Rating” is the occupational specialty that enlisted personnel acquire through training and experience, having demonstrated suitable skills and aptitude to either attend a school or ...once upon a time...to be advanced in grade by the Captain. “Rate” is a combination of pay grade and rating and is the approximate equivalent of officer “rank.”

Cook or Baker, in the WW II era Navy (they are Commissary Specialists today), would be a man’s rating; his commensurate rate would be Petty Officer or Chief Petty Officer in that rating. A mess attendant (they are called “mess cooks” today) would most likely be a SA/SN or FA/FN. They were essentially waiters and busboys and handled the jobs of setting up and cleaning up the mess decks, serving/bussing, as well as washing dishes and assisting the Cooks/Bakers as required. It was a temporary assignment that rotated among the most junior personnel in the crew; in a sub that usually meant all of the men not yet “Qualified in Submarines” were eligible for “Mess Attendant” duties. I’ll avoid any discussion concerning Officer Cooks and Stewards, except to point out that in the WW II era they were a separate category and were specifically assigned to the Officers’ Mess (and they were almost always black, Panamanian or Filipino).

OK…on to specifics related to submarines. Everyone…meaning everyone aboard a sub then and now, had to “Qualify” in submarines. That applied to rated men regardless of their rating, including Cooks and Bakers back then. Non-rated men would almost never be part of a submarine’s crew, simply due to the requirement to complete submarine training before getting to a boat. Submarine School was a Class “C” school, which generally required completion of either a Class “A” or Class “B” school; those in-turn qualified a man for advancement to E-4 or for designation as a striker, giving him rating and rate.

To quote the Navy’s policy and requirements in 1940; “To qualify as a submarine man, certain requirements must be fulfilled. He must have served at least six months on submarines. Before presenting himself for examination, the candidate must submit a notebook. This book must contain all data specified by “Submarine Instructions.” '(ed. note: that included hand-made line-diagrams of all the piping systems and electrical systems in the boat as well as diagrams of the hull structure with all machinery, weapon systems, equipage, and tankage.)' The examination is an oral and practical one. It consists in going through the boat and operating all apparatus in the boat and answering any questions pertaining to the same. A commissioned officer conducts the examination.”

So, not to delve into any of the mistakes that I have found in “U-571” or any other submarine movie, as a Mess Attendant, “Eddie” would have been a striker and could certainly have performed planesman duties, and many others, if he was “Qualified in Submarines” or even progressing well toward his examination.

I’d also hasten to point out that “Fireman” has nothing to do with firefighting (except when assigned to a Damage Control Party). The term was borrowed from the railroads and came about when steam propulsion emerged as the standard and specialists were needed to operate the equipment; a Fireman’s job originally was to shovel coal or feed fuel oil to the boilers and assist the rated propulsion engineers to operate the multitude of engines, pumps, compressors, etc. It remains, to this day, as a category of non-rated and striker personnel that are progressing into propulsion engineering ratings.

Hope that helps; have a nice day all...

merc4ulfate · 02-06-15, 10:25 AM

@bones

True that fits surface ships and I should know I was on one but that did not fit submarines. Dish washing may have been a disciplinary idea or a new man aboard idea but no one served the men. They stood in line and were served by the cook or the baker or both. There were no stewards or officers cooks aboard a submarine. There wasn't room on a submarine for the surface formalities.

CaptBones · 02-06-15, 06:05 PM

Wrong...

Fleet subs in WW II most certainly did have "mess cooks" and "stewards".

Three men in my family served in subs in SUBSOWESPAC and SUBPAC. Besides their stories, told around the table and out at the hunting shack during the 50's and 60's, I have ship manning documents and "Watch, Quarter and Station Bills" from four boats, covering most of 1942-1946, along with COMSUBPAC Ship's Organization and Regulation Manuals (SORM) which include policy, procedures (and limitations) for assigning men to "Mess Attendant" duties.

Having served in two Guppy's and a nuc boat during the early years of my own 30 year Navy career, I can also say that we had mess cooks and stewards up until the mid-70's. I did my own brief (1-week) stint mess cooking during a Midshipman Summer Cruise in the "Grampus" (SS-523).

Although stewards did bring meals from the galley to the wardroom pantry and then serve it in the wardroom, the mess cooks did not serve meals to the crew. The mess decks were run "cafeteria style" and mess cook duties were to set up the chow line, wash the trays/dishware/utensils and clean up after meal time...and any other time the cooks decided cleaning was in order. I got my butt kicked for showing up to set up for mid-rats without a T-shirt, which the galley Watch Captain declared was grounds for me to spend the rest of the morning deep-cleaning the entire serving line, sinks, tables, chairs, and the deck.

If that's not good enough, there are a couple of good WW II submarine books written by enlisted men that describe life in the boats in detail. My personal favorite is "Wake of the Wahoo"; I met and talked briefly with Forrest Sterling in Gulfport during a business trip to Avondale and Ingalls shipyards in 1998.

02-01-15, 10:20 AM	#1
SeaviewSkipper Loader Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 84 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	MESS ATTENDANT TRAINING AND SKILLS IN A FLEET BOAT Hi everyone. I was wondering if any of you know what the mess attendants in WWII Fleet boats were trained in, other than their serving duties. I've done some Google searches, but can't find the information. I know they had damage control training, but that's about it. With all of the WWII submarine books I've read over the years I've encountered precious little about the "messboys". In the movie U-571, the mess attendant "Eddie" is able to helm the boat and do other control-room duties once they're stranded on U-571. Is that historically accurate, or were they being politically correct because Eddie was black? Thanks. Jeff

02-01-15, 03:19 PM	#2
merc4ulfate DILLIGAF Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: florida Posts: 2,058 Downloads: 210 Uploads: 0	COOKS AND ASSISTANTS Here you go friend They volunteered and got the billet for a cook or baker. Most were not trained in anything other than normal boot camp and damage control. Some volunteered to learn other duties at sea. GALLEY LIFE COMMAND STRUCTURE __________________ Self-education is, I firmly believe, the only kind of education there is. ~Isaac Asimov~ Mercfulfate 将補日本帝國海軍 Last edited by merc4ulfate; 02-01-15 at 03:31 PM.

02-02-15, 09:27 AM	#3
Hambone307 Planesman Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 188 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Very good read! __________________ ____ I can't tell if I have found a rope or lost my horse.

02-05-15, 04:38 PM	#5
CaptBones The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Rockton, IL Posts: 281 Downloads: 208 Uploads: 0	Nope...completely wrong. There seems to be a lot of misinformation and misinterpretation of information here. First, let’s clarify what a “Mess Attendant” is in the WWII USN; he is not a “cook” or a “baker”, he would most likely be a non-rated Seaman or Fireman. You ask, “what does that mean?” It isn’t really difficult, but it also isn’t that straightforward. Enlisted personnel in the U.S. Navy generally have a “rate” and may have a “rating”…only officers have “rank.” Personnel in pay grades E-1 (Seaman Recruit [SR], Fireman Recruit [FR]) and E-2 (Seaman Apprentice [SA], and Fireman Apprentice [FA]) are “non-rated”, while E-3’s (Seaman [SN] and Fireman [FN]) may be rated and in that case they are called “strikers”, indicating that they are pursuing or “striking” for a rating. BTW, there are other E-1 through E-3 non-rates and strikers, such as Airmen and Corpsmen; I merely limited the discussion to the two that would be part of a submarine crew. “Rating” is the occupational specialty that enlisted personnel acquire through training and experience, having demonstrated suitable skills and aptitude to either attend a school or ...once upon a time...to be advanced in grade by the Captain. “Rate” is a combination of pay grade and rating and is the approximate equivalent of officer “rank.” Cook or Baker, in the WW II era Navy (they are Commissary Specialists today), would be a man’s rating; his commensurate rate would be Petty Officer or Chief Petty Officer in that rating. A mess attendant (they are called “mess cooks” today) would most likely be a SA/SN or FA/FN. They were essentially waiters and busboys and handled the jobs of setting up and cleaning up the mess decks, serving/bussing, as well as washing dishes and assisting the Cooks/Bakers as required. It was a temporary assignment that rotated among the most junior personnel in the crew; in a sub that usually meant all of the men not yet “Qualified in Submarines” were eligible for “Mess Attendant” duties. I’ll avoid any discussion concerning Officer Cooks and Stewards, except to point out that in the WW II era they were a separate category and were specifically assigned to the Officers’ Mess (and they were almost always black, Panamanian or Filipino). OK…on to specifics related to submarines. Everyone…meaning everyone aboard a sub then and now, had to “Qualify” in submarines. That applied to rated men regardless of their rating, including Cooks and Bakers back then. Non-rated men would almost never be part of a submarine’s crew, simply due to the requirement to complete submarine training before getting to a boat. Submarine School was a Class “C” school, which generally required completion of either a Class “A” or Class “B” school; those in-turn qualified a man for advancement to E-4 or for designation as a striker, giving him rating and rate. To quote the Navy’s policy and requirements in 1940; “To qualify as a submarine man, certain requirements must be fulfilled. He must have served at least six months on submarines. Before presenting himself for examination, the candidate must submit a notebook. This book must contain all data specified by “Submarine Instructions.” '(ed. note: that included hand-made line-diagrams of all the piping systems and electrical systems in the boat as well as diagrams of the hull structure with all machinery, weapon systems, equipage, and tankage.)' The examination is an oral and practical one. It consists in going through the boat and operating all apparatus in the boat and answering any questions pertaining to the same. A commissioned officer conducts the examination.” So, not to delve into any of the mistakes that I have found in “U-571” or any other submarine movie, as a Mess Attendant, “Eddie” would have been a striker and could certainly have performed planesman duties, and many others, if he was “Qualified in Submarines” or even progressing well toward his examination. I’d also hasten to point out that “Fireman” has nothing to do with firefighting (except when assigned to a Damage Control Party). The term was borrowed from the railroads and came about when steam propulsion emerged as the standard and specialists were needed to operate the equipment; a Fireman’s job originally was to shovel coal or feed fuel oil to the boilers and assist the rated propulsion engineers to operate the multitude of engines, pumps, compressors, etc. It remains, to this day, as a category of non-rated and striker personnel that are progressing into propulsion engineering ratings. Hope that helps; have a nice day all...

02-06-15, 10:25 AM	#6
merc4ulfate DILLIGAF Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: florida Posts: 2,058 Downloads: 210 Uploads: 0	@bones True that fits surface ships and I should know I was on one but that did not fit submarines. Dish washing may have been a disciplinary idea or a new man aboard idea but no one served the men. They stood in line and were served by the cook or the baker or both. There were no stewards or officers cooks aboard a submarine. There wasn't room on a submarine for the surface formalities. __________________ Self-education is, I firmly believe, the only kind of education there is. ~Isaac Asimov~ Mercfulfate 将補日本帝國海軍

02-06-15, 06:05 PM	#7
CaptBones The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Rockton, IL Posts: 281 Downloads: 208 Uploads: 0	Not to quibble...but... Wrong... Fleet subs in WW II most certainly did have "mess cooks" and "stewards". Three men in my family served in subs in SUBSOWESPAC and SUBPAC. Besides their stories, told around the table and out at the hunting shack during the 50's and 60's, I have ship manning documents and "Watch, Quarter and Station Bills" from four boats, covering most of 1942-1946, along with COMSUBPAC Ship's Organization and Regulation Manuals (SORM) which include policy, procedures (and limitations) for assigning men to "Mess Attendant" duties. Having served in two Guppy's and a nuc boat during the early years of my own 30 year Navy career, I can also say that we had mess cooks and stewards up until the mid-70's. I did my own brief (1-week) stint mess cooking during a Midshipman Summer Cruise in the "Grampus" (SS-523). Although stewards did bring meals from the galley to the wardroom pantry and then serve it in the wardroom, the mess cooks did not serve meals to the crew. The mess decks were run "cafeteria style" and mess cook duties were to set up the chow line, wash the trays/dishware/utensils and clean up after meal time...and any other time the cooks decided cleaning was in order. I got my butt kicked for showing up to set up for mid-rats without a T-shirt, which the galley Watch Captain declared was grounds for me to spend the rest of the morning deep-cleaning the entire serving line, sinks, tables, chairs, and the deck. If that's not good enough, there are a couple of good WW II submarine books written by enlisted men that describe life in the boats in detail. My personal favorite is "Wake of the Wahoo"; I met and talked briefly with Forrest Sterling in Gulfport during a business trip to Avondale and Ingalls shipyards in 1998.