Library of legacy knowledge

Onkel Neal · 11-15-14, 04:54 PM

There was a guy on the radio talking about a project like a library of sorts, of all kinds of old tech How Tos, like making preserves, making a forge, how to sow fields, all kinds of things we would need to know if the Russians hit us with an EMP. For the life of me I cannot remember what they called this, and I have searched, but cannot find it. I figure there are a few guys here who have stronger Google Fu than me....

Oberon · 11-15-14, 05:20 PM

A fantastic idea! Not just for EMPs but for any disaster that will set us back a few centuries.

There was an old book called 'Enquire Within Upon Everything':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enquire...pon_Everything

It was this book that Tim Berners-Lee kind of based the internet on, it was in a way what he hoped the internet would become, a sort of modern version of the book.

It's worth a look.

ikalugin · 11-15-14, 05:28 PM

STC?

Catfish · 11-15-14, 05:55 PM

yes, i faintly remember .. there was something ... gawd if i ....

AHH!

Books !

In Germany we had a book called "Wissensspeicher" (Knowledge store?), where the most crucial things were explained, just in case ..

I also have some books covering living off the grid, and doing a lot of things yourself, but ...
Remember when the Russians, Chinese, AlQuaeda or Zombies or whatever come, there will be no Internet to use. Apart from EMP, simple power dropout will take care.
Books and knowledge are the only way to go then.

And even if i do not really believe in anything of the mentioned above, and even if we have built our house to be prepared .. even if the generator works for a few months (until fuel runs out) there will be some "minor" problems: Food and diseases.

Even with the best of conserves, you cannot have enough to survive (unless you are 80, or so). Then you would need some acres to produce enough food, and there will be others who want it ..

The lights will first go out in the cities. Without energy and fuel (you need electric pumps, to fill your gas tank), there will be not enough support food-wise into the big cities, and even if you 'conquer' and hold a supermarket, how long do you think you will be able to eat the things stored there, without cooling ? And even with electricity, only two-three months ahead. What then ?

Nah i guess a civilised life in peace, with french and italian foods and vine available everywhere, are a much better choice

ikalugin · 11-15-14, 06:40 PM

We need the STC technology.

Catfish · 11-15-14, 07:05 PM

What's STC ?

ikalugin · 11-15-14, 07:08 PM

Standard Template Construct - a Warhammer 40k technology.

Skybird · 11-15-14, 07:15 PM

An according projects stores grains of all sorts in a bunker in either Greenland or the Swiss Alps, I do not recall anymore where it was. So that agriculture could be restarted in case of Idonotimaginewhat.

Regarding knowledge storage, just do not trust in contemporary technology as a data medium. We already lose access to data media and storage codes due to the technological decoders being lost. What is much better is paper and ink of good quality. And that must not necessarily be the latest generation of paper and ink, but possibly could be something of age. Important is the climate of the storage location, light conditions, geological stability, and so on. If done well, paper can survive not for centuries but millenia. Trust in your USB stick for as long? That super-HD? A DVD?

The digital technology for me is more a tool for short-termed pragmatism, to sort and access information in a superior way while accessing it. But the digital technology so far imo misses promising outlooks for survivable longterm storage of data. It should not be trusted. The carrier media are too sensible and vulnerable, the technology to access them gets too easily lost, and the decoding keys (programming languages for example) constantly change and increase in number and variety as well. Some scientist examining prospects of the the future therefore claim that a purely digital culture would literally delete itself.

For the ever increasing diversity of digital access methods, and for the ever increasing supernational bureaucracy regulating our lives as well, I have only one metaphor on my mind: the building of the tower ofBabel.

The "unbreakable barrels" with toxic radioactive waste stored in German salt mines are already leaking, btw. And who said that in one thousand years people will still be able to read the warnings in those letters and words that were printed on them? Languages change. And will the paint still be on the corroding barrels? - This only to illustrate the problem from a different angle.

Skybird · 11-15-14, 07:25 PM

P.S. The best passing on of knowledge is - from mouth to ear, from generation to generation. Some religious cults are especially good at this, and as a result are hard to be penetreated or to be wiped out. But mastering arts of craftsmanship, and hand the knowledge from father to son: is the way to go. Plus it adds the bonus of passing on not just theoretic knowledge, but practial experience as well. Which often makes all the difference.

mapuc · 11-15-14, 07:33 PM

@ Skybird

"An according projects stores grains of all sorts in a bunker in either Greenland or the Swiss Alps, I do not recall anymore where it was. So that agriculture could be restarted in case of Idonotimaginewhat"

It's stored in Svalbard, Norway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Global_Seed_Vault

Markus

Skybird · 11-15-14, 07:42 PM

It seems they had a focus on making it hard to reach for regional global conflicts, on the other hand it is so isolated that Norway will find it diffiouclt to defend it against one of the big military powers, if the latter decide to secure control of the place.

I wonder how safe the place is against geological and tectonic disasters, raise of sea levels, tsunamis, super-cell thunderstorms and the like.

There should be several such places around the globe, not just one or two.

Oberon · 11-15-14, 07:45 PM

I must admit when I heard of that seed project I did nod in approval.

Of course, only the Swiss will be around to replant.

Skybird · 11-15-14, 07:58 PM

That are no Swiss, that are Hobbits.

ikalugin · 11-15-14, 09:31 PM

You could use solid crystals as your data medium (and use a laser to engrave data into them), those (in cold and geologically stable environment) could last for hundreds of years without maintenance.

However the only true way to protect your data is to have a self repairing/maintaining data storage facility, but this would require a working AI to run.

Catfish · 11-16-14, 06:16 AM

Hmm, i would also like to look at a website like Neal mentioned in his initial post.. so there is no one who knwos about that ?

Apart from that, during my illustrious career (ahem) i have also worked in a museum, and we of course had a lot of material, object-wise and written texts on old, partially decaying, paper.

Nowadays it is all digitally stored, but CDs are known to remain usable for appx. 20 years, DVDs even less. No idea about BluRay yet.

The only current solution is to copy all the contents from one medium to another (perferably hard disks), following the advance in memory storage. This also means, that already now you cannot easily access databases anymore, that have been created e.g. in dbase, or more exotic old storage systems, hardware and software-wise.

Either the hardware does not work anymore, or the software cannot be read anymore, by new and more developed systems.

Which is why a lot of museum people claim this and the following century will be called the black spot (or "dark age of information") in history, due to abundant, but then unreadable, data material.

11-15-14, 04:54 PM	#1
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,383 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	Library of legacy knowledge There was a guy on the radio talking about a project like a library of sorts, of all kinds of old tech How Tos, like making preserves, making a forge, how to sow fields, all kinds of things we would need to know if the Russians hit us with an EMP. For the life of me I cannot remember what they called this, and I have searched, but cannot find it. I figure there are a few guys here who have stronger Google Fu than me.... __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

11-15-14, 05:55 PM	#4
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,765 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	yes, i faintly remember .. there was something ... gawd if i .... AHH! Books ! In Germany we had a book called "Wissensspeicher" (Knowledge store?), where the most crucial things were explained, just in case .. I also have some books covering living off the grid, and doing a lot of things yourself, but ... Remember when the Russians, Chinese, AlQuaeda or Zombies or whatever come, there will be no Internet to use. Apart from EMP, simple power dropout will take care. Books and knowledge are the only way to go then. And even if i do not really believe in anything of the mentioned above, and even if we have built our house to be prepared .. even if the generator works for a few months (until fuel runs out) there will be some "minor" problems: Food and diseases. Even with the best of conserves, you cannot have enough to survive (unless you are 80, or so). Then you would need some acres to produce enough food, and there will be others who want it .. The lights will first go out in the cities. Without energy and fuel (you need electric pumps, to fill your gas tank), there will be not enough support food-wise into the big cities, and even if you 'conquer' and hold a supermarket, how long do you think you will be able to eat the things stored there, without cooling ? And even with electricity, only two-three months ahead. What then ? Nah i guess a civilised life in peace, with french and italian foods and vine available everywhere, are a much better choice Last edited by Catfish; 11-15-14 at 06:07 PM.

11-15-14, 07:15 PM	#8
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,604 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	An according projects stores grains of all sorts in a bunker in either Greenland or the Swiss Alps, I do not recall anymore where it was. So that agriculture could be restarted in case of Idonotimaginewhat. Regarding knowledge storage, just do not trust in contemporary technology as a data medium. We already lose access to data media and storage codes due to the technological decoders being lost. What is much better is paper and ink of good quality. And that must not necessarily be the latest generation of paper and ink, but possibly could be something of age. Important is the climate of the storage location, light conditions, geological stability, and so on. If done well, paper can survive not for centuries but millenia. Trust in your USB stick for as long? That super-HD? A DVD? The digital technology for me is more a tool for short-termed pragmatism, to sort and access information in a superior way while accessing it. But the digital technology so far imo misses promising outlooks for survivable longterm storage of data. It should not be trusted. The carrier media are too sensible and vulnerable, the technology to access them gets too easily lost, and the decoding keys (programming languages for example) constantly change and increase in number and variety as well. Some scientist examining prospects of the the future therefore claim that a purely digital culture would literally delete itself. For the ever increasing diversity of digital access methods, and for the ever increasing supernational bureaucracy regulating our lives as well, I have only one metaphor on my mind: the building of the tower ofBabel. The "unbreakable barrels" with toxic radioactive waste stored in German salt mines are already leaking, btw. And who said that in one thousand years people will still be able to read the warnings in those letters and words that were printed on them? Languages change. And will the paint still be on the corroding barrels? - This only to illustrate the problem from a different angle. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-15-14, 07:25 PM	#9
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,604 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	P.S. The best passing on of knowledge is - from mouth to ear, from generation to generation. Some religious cults are especially good at this, and as a result are hard to be penetreated or to be wiped out. But mastering arts of craftsmanship, and hand the knowledge from father to son: is the way to go. Plus it adds the bonus of passing on not just theoretic knowledge, but practial experience as well. Which often makes all the difference. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-15-14, 07:42 PM	#11
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,604 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	It seems they had a focus on making it hard to reach for regional global conflicts, on the other hand it is so isolated that Norway will find it diffiouclt to defend it against one of the big military powers, if the latter decide to secure control of the place. I wonder how safe the place is against geological and tectonic disasters, raise of sea levels, tsunamis, super-cell thunderstorms and the like. There should be several such places around the globe, not just one or two. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-15-14, 05:20 PM	#2
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	A fantastic idea! Not just for EMPs but for any disaster that will set us back a few centuries. There was an old book called 'Enquire Within Upon Everything': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enquire...pon_Everything It was this book that Tim Berners-Lee kind of based the internet on, it was in a way what he hoped the internet would become, a sort of modern version of the book. It's worth a look.

11-15-14, 05:28 PM	#3
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	STC?

11-15-14, 06:40 PM	#5
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	We need the STC technology.

11-15-14, 07:05 PM	#6
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,765 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	What's STC ?

11-15-14, 07:08 PM	#7
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Standard Template Construct - a Warhammer 40k technology.

11-15-14, 07:33 PM	#10
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,535 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	@ Skybird "An according projects stores grains of all sorts in a bunker in either Greenland or the Swiss Alps, I do not recall anymore where it was. So that agriculture could be restarted in case of Idonotimaginewhat" It's stored in Svalbard, Norway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Global_Seed_Vault Markus

11-15-14, 07:45 PM	#12
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	I must admit when I heard of that seed project I did nod in approval. Of course, only the Swiss will be around to replant.

11-15-14, 07:58 PM	#13
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,604 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	That are no Swiss, that are Hobbits. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-15-14, 09:31 PM	#14
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	You could use solid crystals as your data medium (and use a laser to engrave data into them), those (in cold and geologically stable environment) could last for hundreds of years without maintenance. However the only true way to protect your data is to have a self repairing/maintaining data storage facility, but this would require a working AI to run.

11-16-14, 06:16 AM	#15
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,765 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Hmm, i would also like to look at a website like Neal mentioned in his initial post.. so there is no one who knwos about that ? Apart from that, during my illustrious career (ahem) i have also worked in a museum, and we of course had a lot of material, object-wise and written texts on old, partially decaying, paper. Nowadays it is all digitally stored, but CDs are known to remain usable for appx. 20 years, DVDs even less. No idea about BluRay yet. The only current solution is to copy all the contents from one medium to another (perferably hard disks), following the advance in memory storage. This also means, that already now you cannot easily access databases anymore, that have been created e.g. in dbase, or more exotic old storage systems, hardware and software-wise. Either the hardware does not work anymore, or the software cannot be read anymore, by new and more developed systems. Which is why a lot of museum people claim this and the following century will be called the black spot (or "dark age of information") in history, due to abundant, but then unreadable, data material.