ISIS in Brisbane and Sydney.

[Rockstar]

Updated 18 Sep 2014.

Nearly 900 police were involved in raids in Brisbane and Sydney aimed at foiling an alleged imminent terrorist attack, with 15 people arrested.

The plan was to snatch people off the street, drape them in an Islamic State flag and behead them.

Sydney's Muslim community are gathering in Lakemba tonight to protest the raids this morning.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-1...isbane/5752074

[Jimbuna]

Just further proof the tentacles of this IS cancer is spreading around the world.

The 99.99% of peaceful muslims who are repulsed at current IS actions have a role to play in ridding the world of them even if only in voicing support for those who will be tasked with eradicating IS.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

The 99.99% of peaceful muslims who are repulsed at current IS actions have a role to play in ridding the world of them even if only in voicing support for those who will be tasked with eradicating IS.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/h...rists.25351681

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...-me-truly-sick

[Dread Knot]

Good bit of counter-terrorism intelligence by the look of it, but very disturbing.
　
Multiculturalism requires a very big gamble. That people will overcome their tribal instinct and trust 'the other'. In the past it was always the minority cultures, religions and races that got attacked for wholly manufactured injustices. "The Jews are poisoning the wells", or "the blacks want to abuse our women". Now it seems we actually have a minority of which a tiny subset declares war on it's host society and its values. And the, bigger subset starts to look scary and alien to the majority.

The largest proportion of Australian Muslims were born in that nation. Not Lebanon, Iraq or Turkey, but Australia. I think Australia has accepted multiculturalism because successive generations have graciously accepted mainstream Australian values, while retaining their ethnic identity. Which is why this news comes as a shock.

Over in Europe some anti-Muslim parties are gaining a LOT of steam. The (utterly mad) Freedom party in the Netherlands is now the biggest party. FN in France is huge. Here in the States, putting up a mosque throws communities into fear like it never did before. ( and in Wisconsin some idiot shoots up a Sikh temple because he's too stupid or deranged to know the difference. )

It's a shame. All the Muslims I have met have impressed me as decent folk. Hospitable and polite. They often won't let me go without a meal or a coffee. Yet many express the fear their kids no matter how well-adjusted on the surface may be lured into jihad. Is there just a very effective form of recruting taking place on the internet? I've heard that the ISIS recruiting videos are very slick and well-produced with money behind them but somehow that doesn't seem like enough to explain the appeal to drop a young promising life and go get your head blown off in the Middle East.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Over in Europe some anti-Muslim parties are gaining a LOT of steam. The (utterly mad) Freedom party in the Netherlands is now the biggest party. FN in France is huge. Here in the States, putting up a mosque throws communities into fear like it never did before. ( and in Wisconsin some idiot shoots up a Sikh temple because he's too stupid or deranged to know the difference. )

It's a shame. All the Muslims I have met have impressed me as decent folk. Hospitable and polite. They often won't let me go without a meal or a coffee. Yet many express the fear their kids no matter how well-adjusted on the surface may be lured into jihad. Is there just a very effective form of recruting taking place on the internet? I've heard that the ISIS recruiting videos are very slick and well-produced with money behind them but somehow that doesn't seem like enough to explain the appeal to drop a young promising life and go get your head blown off in the Middle East.

This is the problem, the more that anti-Muslim sentiment grows, the more that young Muslims are going to find themselves ostracised from society by those who fear them or hate them, and so the only place that they're going to feel welcome is in the hands of the radical Muslim crowd who promise them revenge for all the bad things that they have suffered. Hate only breeds hate, ignorance breeds ignorance. Sadly I don't see a way that this will change.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Oberon

This is the problem, the more that anti-Muslim sentiment grows, the more that young Muslims are going to find themselves ostracised from society by those who fear them or hate them, and so the only place that they're going to feel welcome is in the hands of the radical Muslim crowd who promise them revenge for all the bad things that they have suffered. Hate only breeds hate, ignorance breeds ignorance. Sadly I don't see a way that this will change.

I agree. If you feel the larger society rejects you, you reject it back.

However, there has been a bit of a twist lately. Recently, a 19-year Somali-American girl from Minnesota disappeared on her way to a friend's wedding party and somehow ended up in Syria instead, happily telling her family she had embarked on a new life. According to her family she didn't have a dime to her name. So, apparently somebody here is buying the tickets and arranging the passports these kids cannot afford. And somebody is guiding them because in many cases the family said they didn't think they could find Syria on a map previously.

And she's not the only one. Kinda of reminds me of those cults kids disappeared into back in the 1970s.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Oberon

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/h...rists.25351681

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...-me-truly-sick

This I think sort of proves that hate does not breed hate. Additionally the way I was trained anything we do in life involves making a conscience decision. We decide to rise above the head games and succeed or make the conscience decision to quit and fail some even going so far as to submitting thier will to that of another. Nobody to blame for my decisions but me.

I'd join them in their protest.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

I agree. If you feel the larger society rejects you, you reject it back.

However, there has been a bit of a twist lately. Recently, a 19-year Somali-American girl from Minnesota disappeared on her way to a friend's wedding party and somehow ended up in Syria instead, happily telling her family she had embarked on a new life. According to her family she didn't have a dime to her name. So, apparently somebody here is buying the tickets and arranging the passports these kids cannot afford. And somebody is guiding them because in many cases the family said they didn't think they could find Syria on a map previously.

And she's not the only one. Kinda of reminds me of those cults kids disappeared into back in the 1970s.

Absolutely, and it's a thriving market, I have little doubt that ISIL is actively paying people in western countries to recruit and send people into Syria, it makes sense for them to do so.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Absolutely, and it's a thriving market, I have little doubt that ISIL is actively paying people in western countries to recruit and send people into Syria, it makes sense for them to do so.

Yeah. Unfortunately, that's just sort of clandestine activity that sets the already touchy paranoia meter here higher.

Eventually, I hope these kids learn not to drink the Kool-Aid these cults are offering. In this case, the cult is the Kool-Aid.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Yeah. Unfortunately, that's just sort of clandestine activity that sets the already touchy paranoia meter here higher.

Eventually, I hope these kids learn not to drink the Kool-Aid these cults are offering. In this case, the cult is the Kool-Aid.

Fear is something easier to spread than tolerance. Whilst there are many who won't drink the Kool-Aid, including those I linked to earlier, there are sadly all too many, especially those in the teenage years who are struggling with hormones as much as they are religion and social order, who are prime targets for radicalisation.

That's not to say there isn't hope...you see videos like this:


And perhaps there is hope, I'd like to think there is, that we can eventually cut off the supply lines to the likes of ISIL by estranging them from their customer base, but this is a process that will take a long time and every time ISIL kills a hostage or an Islamic act against the west is reported in the news then it's a set back for both Islam and the west, because you know that people are going to react emotionally first and rationally a distant second...that's human nature, that's exactly what the terrorists are counting on, they want disproportionate retaliation, they want the Middle East to be nuked, because that will just open the floodgates to manpower the likes of which they can only dream about right now...and sadly, there are some people in the west, who are anti-Islam and they are just playing right into their hands without even seeing it.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Just further proof the tentacles of this IS cancer is spreading around the world.

The 99.99% of peaceful muslims who are repulsed at current IS actions have a role to play in ridding the world of them even if only in voicing support for those who will be tasked with eradicating IS.

Now you may hate me for writing following

According to the Swedish SIPRI about 10 to 15 % of the Islamic population are either radical or are following their belief.

Have in mind 10-15 % is not every muslim.

It was your 99.99 % that made me remember the numbers from SIPRI which we were told some years ago in the Swedish news program Rapport

Markus

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Fear is something easier to spread than tolerance. Whilst there are many who won't drink the Kool-Aid, including those I linked to earlier, there are sadly all too many, especially those in the teenage years who are struggling with hormones as much as they are religion and social order, who are prime targets for radicalisation.

That's not to say there isn't hope...you see videos like this:


And perhaps there is hope, I'd like to think there is, that we can eventually cut off the supply lines to the likes of ISIL by estranging them from their customer base, but this is a process that will take a long time and every time ISIL kills a hostage or an Islamic act against the west is reported in the news then it's a set back for both Islam and the west, because you know that people are going to react emotionally first and rationally a distant second...that's human nature, that's exactly what the terrorists are counting on, they want disproportionate retaliation, they want the Middle East to be nuked, because that will just open the floodgates to manpower the likes of which they can only dream about right now...and sadly, there are some people in the west, who are anti-Islam and they are just playing right into their hands without even seeing it.

There is ofcourse that unethical (and completely extreme) option - physical destruction of the hostile group's structure, with powerful propaganda/conversion mechanism to back it up and mop up the majority that is left behind.

However as this option is unethical, I cannot support it.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

There is ofcourse that unethical (and completely extreme) option - physical destruction of the hostile group's structure, with powerful propaganda/conversion mechanism to back it up and mop up the majority that is left behind.

However as this option is unethical, I cannot support it.

They make a desert and call it peace. --Publius Tactius

Yeah, that's so appealing in the beginning but always comes back to haunt you long term. We have enough unsettling parallels to Rome here in the US already. Somewhere there needs to be a carrot to go along with the stick.

[ikalugin]

I was actually making a paralel with the cetral asian history. Ie the general way to subdue the people there (the way I cannot support in the modern times due to its unethical means of attaining the ends) was:
- kill everyone apart from the too old (who will die before transfering their culture to the young) and the too young. The term for this was to kill "everyone taller than the sword (placed in the ground)" I think.
- indoctrinate the young.

However for obvious reasons (informational freedom) nowadays one has to completely irradicate the culture and thus perform essentially the genocyde, even considering how much did the humanity improve the indoctrination methods.

Thus such method while attaining the objective (removing hostile culture without killing everyone) is still unethical as it still requires physical removal for a substantial percentage of population. And thus I cannot advocate it.

The reason why I bring it up at all, is because (atleast to me) radical islamism appears to have a lot of common points with the medevill era culture stuff, thus one can look at the historic paralels as part of pure academic line of thought.

[Oberon]

The problem with that is the media, the world is a smaller place, so any attempt to conduct such an unethical scheme would be picked up by your detractors and broadcast around the world within days, if not hours, and then you would have people on the street, on the rooftops and you would be put in the Hague and executed.