Question about modern subs.

[Admiral Halsey]

I was rereading Tom Clancy's SSN the other day when a thought occurred to me. During the entire time the sub was at sea it raised it's periscope very few times an not once was it to attack and enemy vessel.(Not even during the convoy attack.) What I need to know is if modern subs can really attack that efficiently without seeing the target at all?

[Jimbuna]

I'm certainly no expert but the best classes with the newest equipment surely can...a periscope check is nothing more than a visual confirmation these days.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm no expert either, but I have read a little about modern technology. It's my understanding that modern systems can identify a ship by the sound signature. If they can verify the ship type without seeing it then they should be good to fire. All modern torpedoes have homing tech and can find the correct target with relative ease.

We do have some former submariners who could probably verify that this is possible, if not exactly how.

[Jimbuna]

The first submarine to be built without a periscope was the USS Virginia built in 2004:

The 377-foot-long sub is the first to be built without a periscope, using a high-resolution digital camera instead.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1254706/posts

[Oberon]

AFAIK it is possible, after all it's a bit hard to use a periscope to attack a submerged submarine. If the scope is used I think it's usually just for confirmation or intel gathering purposes, and only very briefly since both attack and search scopes can be picked up by surface search radar which is why some scopes have an ESM strength detector in order to warn the user to get the scope down sharp if the readings start going into the red.

Generally speaking though, it's a case of examining a sound output from varying angles to make absolutely sure where it is, then the torpedo will run in with an active seeker, so as long as the enemy contact is within the cone of the active sonar on the torpedo it will acquire and run in to detonate...unless it gets spooked by decoys of course, but if it does fail to detonate and the wire hasn't been cut then you can steer it back in again for a second attempt.

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

The first submarine to be built without a periscope was the USS Virginia built in 2004:



http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1254706/posts

Astute has the same thing, it is still a periscope that pierces the surface of the water and can be detected (although it is somewhat smaller than the traditional periscope I believe) but rather than run directly from the control room to the surface it is sent to a series of tv screens in the conn (most subs had a secondary TV screen that relayed what the periscope was looking at anyway) so there's penetration of the hull and thus less opportunities for water to get into the people part of the sub.

[NeonSamurai]

Well if the Sonalysis sims are at all real, then they definitely can. From a technical standpoint even the ww2 subs could potentially do it with straight running torpedoes using their hydrophones. Someone here ages ago had even written a tutorial on how track and attack surface contacts using only the hydrophones by figuring out their course and speed, just by listening to the sounds and directions and plotting it out over time. You could actually develop pretty accurate tracks using this, but it took a lot of practice.

With modern passive sonar you can identify vessels by the sound trace they make, matched to a library, and use computers to hone in on the track, figure out distance, speed, etc.. Then launch a wire guided adcap on passive, only letting it go active when it was right on the target. Of course in the sims at least (and I am sure reality) it is a bit of a guessing game as local water conditions can seriously distort things, particularly the actual range. Active sonar or radar will clear things up in a hurry, but everyone will know you are there and almost exactly where too.

As for periscopes or ESM masts, I don't think they are used that much once you are out to sea. In modern times they are mostly used for navigating shipping or scouting purposes more than anything. You wouldn't want them for attacking so much any more, as most radar can easily pick them up.

[ETR3(SS)]

In a word yes. You can conduct an entire attack without using the periscope. How else would you attack a hostile submarine? Also given the fact that surface vessels make retarded amounts of noise, it isn't that hard at all to detect, track and classify long before they even know you're there.

[Catfish]

You can certainly execute an attack without using the periscope (this was already possible at the end of WW2, using the type XXI detection and ranging system)

And b.t.w. i think a camera on an extractable arm, is still a periscope.
But thinking of what would happen nowadays, if you screwed up the identification for whatever reason, a short verification via periscope (or via some drone) would be done, before firing.


OT

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

...The Royal Navy...(the last is best). HMS Conquerer, 1982, an attack nuclear submersible famously attacked and sank the Argentine vessel, Admiral Belgrano-formely the USS Phoenix, launched 1938, a light cruiser....

" .. As a result Mrs Thatcher and her War Cabinet, meeting at Chequers the following day, agreed to a request from Admiral Sir Terence Lewin, the Chief of the Defence Staff, to alter the rules of engagement and allow an attack on General Belgrano outside the exclusion zone."

Which was done, still controversial today. Anyway the whole Argentine idea of taking back their 'Malvinas' was not a very clever one.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

The first submarine to be built without a periscope was the USS Virginia built in 2004:



http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1254706/posts

and it is really cool too!

It raises like a scope, takes a quick 360 degree panoramic high definition digital photo and lowers.

this means seconds of exposure of the "scope" gives a full view of the battlefield that can be examined in detail aboard the sub instantly.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

and it is really cool too!

It raises like a scope, takes a quick 360 degree panoramic high definition digital photo and lowers.

this means seconds of exposure of the "scope" gives a full view of the battlefield that can be examined in detail aboard the sub instantly.

Explained here re: HMS Astute...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20660444

[Platapus]

If the target you want to destroy (baddies) is in an area of targets you don't want to destroy (innocents), a quick visual confirmation has its advantages.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

It raises like a scope, takes a quick 360 degree panoramic high definition digital photo and lowers.

this means seconds of exposure of the "scope" gives a full view of the battlefield that can be examined in detail aboard the sub instantly.

That to me is a perfect solution. Take the picture fast and then you can take as long as you like, with as many people as you like to look at the stored image with no sensor exposed.

I bet you can image 360 in about a second.

[mapuc]

For years I have had this idea about a sub-driven drone.

The Sub drop a "thing" in the water and when the sub is far away it activate this thing that turn a this thing into a rocket that shot this drone out of the water and into the sky.

While it is in the air, it can sweep the area with some kind of radar and other things to collect information about enemy warship in that area. This information can be send by wire or wireless to this "thing" that float on the water. I don't know if this "thing" should have some type of wire connected to the sub or not.

Just an idea.

Markus

[Tango589]

Isn't easier to call it a 'Sub launched spy drone'?

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Tango589

Isn't easier to call it a 'Sub launched spy drone'?

If they ever invent such a device I don't know what they will call it. I guess it will have some technical name and some folks name(can't remember the exact phrase for it) Like the Harpoon or the Tomahawk in technical words they are named different

What do you think about my idea?

Markus