Returning SH3/GWX3 player with some questions.

Boarspear2061 · 08-23-13, 01:23 PM

Guten tag, kaleuns! I'm a returning SH3/GWX Gold player just starting back again! http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/imag...subsimlove.gif

I have a few questions for anyone who can help. My friend and I have started a hotseat campaign from the beginning. Our goal in this campaign is to try to stick to a pretty decent measure of operational realism, to the point of obeying radio orders as well as possible, operating in appropriate areas for our flotilla, etc. We're also trying to keep it semi-realistic in the sense that doing anything that would get me court-martialed either ends the campaign, or gets me sent to the Black Sea to patrol in a Type IIA as punishment detail.

I noticed that as of October of '39, U-boots are all ordered by BdU to sink ships only with torpedoes, and not to engage with guns. Does anyone know when that order gets countermanded? I assume it will at some point, and I'm fine obeying orders as long as necessary, but it is hampering my killing ability somewhat! http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/imag...thumbsdown.gif

Also, we have been thinking about trying a Type IX for the first time, and maybe doing long range patrols against the USA or something like that later in the war. Is there a particular flotilla we should be in for that to be realistic?

Finally, does anyone know where I can find a rundown of U-boat stats? Such as dive time, top speed, range, torp. capacity, etc? I'm aware the Type IX is supposed to have a significantly slower dive time than the VIIs, but I wanted to get some idea of just what I'm getting myself into. Thanks, all!

maurice076 · 08-23-13, 11:20 PM

All I have is a welcome to subsim boarspear,good questions I'm sure a kind soul with some answers will be along.

sublynx · 08-24-13, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boarspear2061

I noticed that as of October of '39, U-boots are all ordered by BdU to sink ships only with torpedoes, and not to engage with guns. Does anyone know when that order gets countermanded?

Also, we have been thinking about trying a Type IX for the first time, and maybe doing long range patrols against the USA or something like that later in the war. Is there a particular flotilla we should be in for that to be realistic?

Finally, does anyone know where I can find a rundown of U-boat stats? Such as dive time, top speed, range, torp. capacity, etc?

1. I think you have taken the order too literally. Think about the order first. WHY was the order given? What is the disadvantage in sinking a ship with a deck gun versus a torpedo? It takes more time than a torpedo. And what does a merchant do when it is being bombarded? It radioes in help. And when does the call actually help? In home waters. There are more destroyers around, there might be an RAF aircraft close by. The order is meant to protect the U-boats from counterattacks. It basically says: "sink those enemy ships but do it as fast as possible if there is a risk of being attacked yourselves". If I were you I would just break the order if I was confident my U-boat is out of range of aircraft and I would have checked the area for enemy warships with a hydrophone before starting to sink the ship with a deck gun.

The military doctrine in Germany was not as dictatorial as is commonly supposed. An order usually gave the primary objective and a rudimentary order on how to achieve it but it was up to the officers in the field to discover what the actual situation was and there was freedom to choose different means if the situation so dictated. Hitler's insistence on following orders literally was foreign to the German military tradition on the officer level and caused a lot of dismissals of higher officers who had disobeyed their orders as the conditions on the field turned out to be different than what the order had anticipated.

2. www.uboatnet.net has some info but I haven't found detailed info about type ix's anywhere. Hope you find some

3. I think if you have a type IX by 1942 feel free to join operation Drumbeat no matter what Flottilla you are in. There was a shortage of type IX's and every type IX that could be directed to the operation was ordered to take part.

If you already don't use JFO (Just follow orders) mod, do have a look at it. You might like that mod and some of your answers might be answered there. Welcome back to the game

Boarspear2061 · 08-24-13, 03:16 AM

Sublynx, thanks a lot! I appreciate the help. I will say, the "torpedoes not guns" order is pretty specific; it says specifically: "Ships are not to be boarded for examination. They may be stopped by gunfire, and their papers examined, but must be sunk only with torpedoes. U-boats are not to engage in gun actions with merchant ships."

Now, I realize that it's impossible to be fully realistic, and it would be silly to try, as in real life U-boats were ordered at this point to stop ships and inspect their documentation, as this order implies, and obviously Silent Hunter even with GWX doesn't simulate that.

However, the order does seem very clear that deck guns are not to be used on targets, and I'm just wondering if that order ever gets rescinded.

Anyway, thanks a lot!

HW3 · 08-24-13, 03:43 AM

Type IX's sailed in the 2nd Flottille.

Welcome Aboard!

sublynx · 08-24-13, 04:09 AM

You could read the chapter on deck gun usage from U-boat Commander's Handbook that was released in 1942. Deck gun usage is ok there and deck guns were used, but not if there was a risk of being attacked while doing it. There was a conflict between Prize regulations and what really was possibly for a u-boat to do near the English coast.

I don't think it ever was ok'd to use a deck gun in a situation where the merchant was armed or near the English coast as there was a big risk of getting attacked while using the deck gun. However I think that the deck gun was used all the time in the first years of the war in safe areas, like Central North Atlantic for example.

I wasn't clear enough on the German military doctrine either. The doctrine doesn't care if the order is specific or not. A specific order can be broken, if the commander makes the assessment that breaking it helps in achieving the objective better than what the order says. The commander takes the responsibility of breaking the order. If the decision turns out to be correct he will not be punished in any way, it might even help his career. If it turns out to be wrong, he could have no consequences, or be jailed or even shot.

What I'm saying is that I think it would be totally realistic to make a judgment of attacking an unarmed merchant in airplane free areas with a deck gun in any year and totally unrealistic to attack an armed merchant with a deck gun, or attacking a merchant in day time with a deck gun near the English coast with it's airbases.

BigWalleye · 08-24-13, 06:31 AM

Thanks, Sublynx, for doing this research. It really helps me to play the game in a more historically accurate way. As Rockin Robbins says, realism isn't in the settings, it's in how you play the game.

u crank · 08-24-13, 06:43 AM

Welcome to SubSim Boarspear2061.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boarspear2061

Also, we have been thinking about trying a Type IX for the first time, and maybe doing long range patrols against the USA or something like that later in the war. Is there a particular flotilla we should be in for that to be realistic?

Both the 2nd and 10th Flotillas operating out of Lorient used Type IX U-boats.
They also operated out of Bordeaux with the 12th Flotilla.

Kelly621 · 08-24-13, 01:12 PM

BoarSpear2061,
Here is the info I have on the Type IX boats most of the data comes from Gordon Williamson's book.

Type IXA
Length: 76.5m
Beam: 6.5m
Draft: 4.7m
Displacement: 1,032 tons surfaced 1,153 tons submerged
Speed 18.2 knots surfaced 7.7 knots submerged
Range: 8,100 nautical miles surfaced 65 nautical miles submerged
Propulsion: (2) MAN 2,200 bhp MWM diesels (2) ssw 500 bhp electric motors
Torpedoes: 4 bow tubes and 2 stern tubes. 22 torpedoes carried.
Crew: 48

Type IXB
A small increase in fuel capacity over the IXA and the deck gun was positioned a bit closer to the conning tower. There were 14 built.
Length: 76.5m
Beam: 6.8m
Draft: 4.7m
Displacement: 1,061 tons surfaced 1,178 tons submerged
Speed 18.2 knots surfaced 7.3 knots submerged
Range: 8,700 nautical miles surfaced 64 nautical miles submerged
Propulsion: (2) MAN 2,200 bhp MWM diesels (2) ssw 500 bhp electric motors
Torpedoes: 4 bow tubes and 2 stern tubes. 22 torpedoes carried.
Crew: 48

Type IXC
Increased fuel capacity over previous versions. 54 were built.
Length: 76.8m
Beam: 6.8m
Draft: 4.7m
Displacement: 1,120 tons surfaced 1,232 tons submerged
Speed 18.3 knots surfaced 7.3 knots submerged
Range: 11,000 nautical miles surfaced 63 nautical miles submerged
Propulsion: (2) MAN 2,200 bhp MWM diesels (2) ssw 500 bhp electric motors
Torpedoes: 4 bow tubes and 2 stern tubes. 22 torpedoes carried.
Crew: 48

Type IXC/40
A small increase in fuel capacity. 87 were built.
Length: 76.8m
Beam: 6.9m
Draft: 4.7m
Displacement: 1,144 tons surfaced 1,257 tons submerged
Speed 18.3 knots surfaced 7.3 knots submerged
Range: 11,400 nautical miles surfaced 63 nautical miles submerged
Propulsion: (2) MAN 2,200 bhp MWM diesels (2) ssw 500 bhp electric motors
Torpedoes: 4 bow tubes and 2 stern tubes. 22 torpedoes carried.
Crew: 48

Type IXD1
Only 2 built (U180 and U195). They changed the propulsion to 6 Daimler Benz MB501 (3 per shaft) to increase the boats speed...Turned out to be an unreliable technical nightmare. Ended up being reconverted to cargo carriers.

Type IXD2
A unique and successful Type IX. 28 were built. It had a longer hull that allowed a twin propulsion system. Two diesels propelled in on the surface while two supercharged diesels were used to quickly recharge the batteries.
Length: 87.6m
Beam: 7.5m
Draft: 5.4m
Displacement: 1,616 tons surfaced 1,804 tons submerged
Speed 19.2 knots surfaced 6.9 knots submerged
Range: 23,700 nautical miles surfaced 57 nautical miles submerged
Propulsion: (2) MAN 2,200 bhp MWM diesels (i think) and (2) supercharged cyclinder 2,200 bhp diesels(2) ssw 580 bhp electric motors
Torpedoes: 4 forward tubes and 2 stern tubes. 24 torpedoes carried.
Crew: 57

As far as dive time, It was a general estimate from a few of the books I have that the Type IX was around ten seconds slower in a crash dive then a Type VII. Of course that is just an estimated time...since factors such as sea state, speed, crew reaction time etc, could change the time one way or another.

Hope this helps.....
Kelly621

Boarspear2061 · 08-24-13, 04:43 PM

Thanks a lot, everyone. This si all very useful, I really appreciate the help.

sublynx · 08-26-13, 11:14 AM

Here's a link to a design study the US Navy made after the war

http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm

There's more nice info on both type VII's and IX's on the links down the page. Click "design studies"

08-23-13, 01:23 PM	#1
Boarspear2061 Swabbie Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Alabama, USA Posts: 8 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	Returning SH3/GWX3 player with some questions. Guten tag, kaleuns! I'm a returning SH3/GWX Gold player just starting back again! http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/imag...subsimlove.gif I have a few questions for anyone who can help. My friend and I have started a hotseat campaign from the beginning. Our goal in this campaign is to try to stick to a pretty decent measure of operational realism, to the point of obeying radio orders as well as possible, operating in appropriate areas for our flotilla, etc. We're also trying to keep it semi-realistic in the sense that doing anything that would get me court-martialed either ends the campaign, or gets me sent to the Black Sea to patrol in a Type IIA as punishment detail. I noticed that as of October of '39, U-boots are all ordered by BdU to sink ships only with torpedoes, and not to engage with guns. Does anyone know when that order gets countermanded? I assume it will at some point, and I'm fine obeying orders as long as necessary, but it is hampering my killing ability somewhat! http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/imag...thumbsdown.gif Also, we have been thinking about trying a Type IX for the first time, and maybe doing long range patrols against the USA or something like that later in the war. Is there a particular flotilla we should be in for that to be realistic? Finally, does anyone know where I can find a rundown of U-boat stats? Such as dive time, top speed, range, torp. capacity, etc? I'm aware the Type IX is supposed to have a significantly slower dive time than the VIIs, but I wanted to get some idea of just what I'm getting myself into. Thanks, all!

08-23-13, 11:20 PM	#2
maurice076 Sailor man Join Date: May 2013 Location: Michigan,USA Posts: 44 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	pass All I have is a welcome to subsim boarspear,good questions I'm sure a kind soul with some answers will be along.

08-24-13, 03:16 AM	#4
Boarspear2061 Swabbie Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Alabama, USA Posts: 8 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	Sublynx, thanks a lot! I appreciate the help. I will say, the "torpedoes not guns" order is pretty specific; it says specifically: "Ships are not to be boarded for examination. They may be stopped by gunfire, and their papers examined, but must be sunk only with torpedoes. U-boats are not to engage in gun actions with merchant ships." Now, I realize that it's impossible to be fully realistic, and it would be silly to try, as in real life U-boats were ordered at this point to stop ships and inspect their documentation, as this order implies, and obviously Silent Hunter even with GWX doesn't simulate that. However, the order does seem very clear that deck guns are not to be used on targets, and I'm just wondering if that order ever gets rescinded. Anyway, thanks a lot! Last edited by Boarspear2061; 08-24-13 at 03:27 AM.

08-24-13, 03:43 AM	#5
HW3 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Gresham Oregon Posts: 6,574 Downloads: 458 Uploads: 0	Type IX's sailed in the 2nd Flottille. Welcome Aboard! __________________ "Some ships are designed to sink...others require our assistance." Nathan Zelk

08-24-13, 04:09 AM	#6
sublynx Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: In the conning tower of my VIIC scanning the sea through the periscope Posts: 1,698 Downloads: 173 Uploads: 7	You could read the chapter on deck gun usage from U-boat Commander's Handbook that was released in 1942. Deck gun usage is ok there and deck guns were used, but not if there was a risk of being attacked while doing it. There was a conflict between Prize regulations and what really was possibly for a u-boat to do near the English coast. I don't think it ever was ok'd to use a deck gun in a situation where the merchant was armed or near the English coast as there was a big risk of getting attacked while using the deck gun. However I think that the deck gun was used all the time in the first years of the war in safe areas, like Central North Atlantic for example. I wasn't clear enough on the German military doctrine either. The doctrine doesn't care if the order is specific or not. A specific order can be broken, if the commander makes the assessment that breaking it helps in achieving the objective better than what the order says. The commander takes the responsibility of breaking the order. If the decision turns out to be correct he will not be punished in any way, it might even help his career. If it turns out to be wrong, he could have no consequences, or be jailed or even shot. What I'm saying is that I think it would be totally realistic to make a judgment of attacking an unarmed merchant in airplane free areas with a deck gun in any year and totally unrealistic to attack an armed merchant with a deck gun, or attacking a merchant in day time with a deck gun near the English coast with it's airbases.

08-24-13, 06:31 AM	#7
BigWalleye Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: On the Eye-lond, mon! Posts: 1,987 Downloads: 465 Uploads: 0	Thanks, Sublynx, for doing this research. It really helps me to play the game in a more historically accurate way. As Rockin Robbins says, realism isn't in the settings, it's in how you play the game.

08-24-13, 01:12 PM	#9
Kelly621 Officer Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: North Carolina Posts: 237 Downloads: 336 Uploads: 0	BoarSpear2061, Here is the info I have on the Type IX boats most of the data comes from Gordon Williamson's book. Type IXA Length: 76.5m Beam: 6.5m Draft: 4.7m Displacement: 1,032 tons surfaced 1,153 tons submerged Speed 18.2 knots surfaced 7.7 knots submerged Range: 8,100 nautical miles surfaced 65 nautical miles submerged Propulsion: (2) MAN 2,200 bhp MWM diesels (2) ssw 500 bhp electric motors Torpedoes: 4 bow tubes and 2 stern tubes. 22 torpedoes carried. Crew: 48 Type IXB A small increase in fuel capacity over the IXA and the deck gun was positioned a bit closer to the conning tower. There were 14 built. Length: 76.5m Beam: 6.8m Draft: 4.7m Displacement: 1,061 tons surfaced 1,178 tons submerged Speed 18.2 knots surfaced 7.3 knots submerged Range: 8,700 nautical miles surfaced 64 nautical miles submerged Propulsion: (2) MAN 2,200 bhp MWM diesels (2) ssw 500 bhp electric motors Torpedoes: 4 bow tubes and 2 stern tubes. 22 torpedoes carried. Crew: 48 Type IXC Increased fuel capacity over previous versions. 54 were built. Length: 76.8m Beam: 6.8m Draft: 4.7m Displacement: 1,120 tons surfaced 1,232 tons submerged Speed 18.3 knots surfaced 7.3 knots submerged Range: 11,000 nautical miles surfaced 63 nautical miles submerged Propulsion: (2) MAN 2,200 bhp MWM diesels (2) ssw 500 bhp electric motors Torpedoes: 4 bow tubes and 2 stern tubes. 22 torpedoes carried. Crew: 48 Type IXC/40 A small increase in fuel capacity. 87 were built. Length: 76.8m Beam: 6.9m Draft: 4.7m Displacement: 1,144 tons surfaced 1,257 tons submerged Speed 18.3 knots surfaced 7.3 knots submerged Range: 11,400 nautical miles surfaced 63 nautical miles submerged Propulsion: (2) MAN 2,200 bhp MWM diesels (2) ssw 500 bhp electric motors Torpedoes: 4 bow tubes and 2 stern tubes. 22 torpedoes carried. Crew: 48 Type IXD1 Only 2 built (U180 and U195). They changed the propulsion to 6 Daimler Benz MB501 (3 per shaft) to increase the boats speed...Turned out to be an unreliable technical nightmare. Ended up being reconverted to cargo carriers. Type IXD2 A unique and successful Type IX. 28 were built. It had a longer hull that allowed a twin propulsion system. Two diesels propelled in on the surface while two supercharged diesels were used to quickly recharge the batteries. Length: 87.6m Beam: 7.5m Draft: 5.4m Displacement: 1,616 tons surfaced 1,804 tons submerged Speed 19.2 knots surfaced 6.9 knots submerged Range: 23,700 nautical miles surfaced 57 nautical miles submerged Propulsion: (2) MAN 2,200 bhp MWM diesels (i think) and (2) supercharged cyclinder 2,200 bhp diesels(2) ssw 580 bhp electric motors Torpedoes: 4 forward tubes and 2 stern tubes. 24 torpedoes carried. Crew: 57 As far as dive time, It was a general estimate from a few of the books I have that the Type IX was around ten seconds slower in a crash dive then a Type VII. Of course that is just an estimated time...since factors such as sea state, speed, crew reaction time etc, could change the time one way or another. Hope this helps..... Kelly621

08-24-13, 04:43 PM	#10
Boarspear2061 Swabbie Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Alabama, USA Posts: 8 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	Thanks a lot, everyone. This si all very useful, I really appreciate the help.

08-26-13, 11:14 AM	#11
sublynx Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: In the conning tower of my VIIC scanning the sea through the periscope Posts: 1,698 Downloads: 173 Uploads: 7	Here's a link to a design study the US Navy made after the war http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm There's more nice info on both type VII's and IX's on the links down the page. Click "design studies"