Stop the clash of civilisations

[Méo]

....

[Oberon]

A nice sentiment, but might as well wish for the Earth to stop turning while they're at it.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

A nice sentiment, but might as well wish for the Earth to stop turning while they're at it.

Exactly...been going on since before the sands of time.

[Takeda Shingen]

Hmm. This is an 'interesting' video.

http://www.avaaz.org/en/about.php

Funded by donations from almost 30,000 Avaazers, an Avaaz team is working closely with the leadership of democracy movements in Syria, Yemen, Libya and more to get them high-tech phones and satellite internet modems, connect them to the world's top media outlets, and provide communications advice.

And we all know who is involved with those democracy movements. Here's their poll page for new directions in 2012:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/january_poll...ople_power_rb/

Something that I found in their 'Big New Directions' poll that I found unsettling.

Go political, getting inside political parties to change the system

Call me nuts, but something about political infiltration doesn't sit right with me.

EDIT: Here's the wiki article about the group:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avaaz

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Call me nuts, but something about political infiltration doesn't sit right with me.

With voting billets you will acchieve nothing, that is for certain. the system is hijacked by some elites, the rules are tailored to serve their purpose, you cannot vote these elites out of office: and by that, democracy has become pointless.

So at least in their choice of tactis they maybe are oriented at the correct direction. Either infiltrate the system in avoidance of its rules that make certain that it will not change, or enforce a change from the outside by ignoring the system alltogether and forming an alternatrive structure in civil society that completely bypasses the system.

But my criticism one post above stands. Idealism that does not discmrinate in questions of rersponsibility and casue and effect, is no idealism, but naivety. And it necessarily causes new injustice by putting victim and perpetrator on the same level.

[Skybird]

Any such missions - idealistically motivated or differently - are neither helpful nor promising success if the give up discriminating between victims and perpetrators, cause and effect. Somebody made a movie, and the other side asnwers with chaos, torture, rape and assassination - that is not a proportionate nor a reasonable response. Calls for self-censoring freedom of speech and censoring media become loud again. Like six years ago, over the Danish cartoons, the murderous hysteria is seen as of the same severity as the action that has triggered it - IF it has triggered it, since it more seems to be that the events have been planned and staged by Salafists and Al Quaeda. The cartoonist is suddenly as evil a man as assassins, an ambassador is as evil as those torturing him to death over a movie he did not make, and Salman Rushdie just received a just consewquence when the other side imposed a call for assassination over him because he wrote a book of mediocre prose and Islam-critical content.

This petition does not discriminate this. Which is a bad failure of theirs.

I boycott thtis petition. But I will sign any petition that demands religions, inculding Islam, to accept the freedom of speech and free opinion, free media, and no special rights for Islam and any other religion to demand supression of this. In Islamic countries, Jews and Chriostzians get perpetrated, discirminated, driven away. Hate proipaganda of much wors ekind gets aired by Palestinian TV hours and hours every day. Int he West, chruches as well as Jerws are confronted with tasteless cartoons (as seen by some) and opposition, criticism - woithiut freaking out.

To speare Islam from the dewmand that it also has to learn this, means to spare it from the demand to chnage itself, and to change its supremacist self-descritpion, its racist world view, and all what if bad negative in it as well. If that is what yiou want - sign any well-meant petitions like this one, which may be well-meant, but are denying realites in an effort tgo let naivety overcome uncomfortable needs of accepting confrontation.

Accepting confrontation is good and positive and even honourful - if it is ion behalf of something of sufficient vaslue. I think free speech and secularism, preventing Islam from being given spoecial status, all this is indeed sufficently valuable and worthy to accept confrontation in defence of it.

And if needed to set up a hell of a fight.

Because without freedom, everything is nothing.

Good will is not enough, avaaz.org. Freedom, and clear discrimination between victim and perpetrator, cause and effect, is more important.

[CCIP]

I find it funny, Skybird, that you post long rants about non-dualism and enlightenment in one thread, and end this one here with a categorically dual division (victims and perpetrators, enemies and allies, us and them, underlyingly - human vs. nonhuman) virtually on the same day. So much for non-dualistic thinking, huh.

I withhold comment on the organization itself, and I think suspicions towards it are right. But I agree that the real clash of civilizations is going on in the heads of people who want it to be going on, conveniently serving powers-that-be that exploit these "us vs. them" divisions to great political effect. I can only continue to condemn this kind of thinking, because when you dig down deep enough, its logic ultimately works against the very people who support taking sides in this supposed clash, whichever side they fall on. Ultimately, the moment you accept that this kind of division exists, you are surrendering the very human rights you are supposed to stand for.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I find it funny, Skybird, that you post long rants about non-dualism and enlightenment in one thread, and end this one here with a categorically dual division (victims and perpetrators, enemies and allies, us and them, underlyingly - human vs. nonhuman) virtually on the same day. So much for non-dualistic thinking, huh.

You think the Buddhist view is not to defend against attack, not to discriminate between assassin and murdered victim, not to differ the guilt of the perpetrator from the innocence of the victim?

HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MARBLES...???

You have something terribly misunderstood there.

Somebody made a movie, and the other side asnwers with chaos, torture, rape and assassination - that is not a proportionate nor a reasonable response. Calls for self-censoring freedom of speech and censoring media become loud again

I cannot help but think that there is a deeper issue going on in the Muslim psyche that has not been revealed to the western culture. Muslims are in general living subjugated lives, they live under a constant pressure of Religious law that is unyielding and the prophet Mohammed seems to be the flash point that ignites there zeal.