Two dead and several wounded in NYC shooting outside Empire State Building

TarJak · 08-24-12, 09:00 PM

http://www.smh.com.au/world/two-dead...824-24smb.html

From some reports sounds like some of the wounded were shot by police in the gunfight that ensued.

08-24-12, 10:07 PM

Look on the bright side, it was only a local going postal

CCIP · 08-25-12, 04:37 PM

So here's an interesting twist to the story:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19380492

Apparently ALL 9 other people who were shot and wounded were actually hit by police bullets and not the gunman.

I wonder what that says about the argument I frequently hear - "If only there was someone carrying at [shooting spree location], this wouldn't have happened". Guns in the hands of good guys sometimes also create problems as much as they solve them... (not saying the police shouldn't have fired on the guy, of course)

Rockstar · 08-25-12, 05:03 PM

I wonder when the last time they reviewed their use of force policy? Doesn't bode well for the city or police, gonna be some serious lawsuits coming up.

Jimbuna · 08-25-12, 06:01 PM

Not a good outcome for the Police but we all know who was responsible for bringing this about and it wasn't the Police.

August · 08-25-12, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

I wonder what that says about the argument I frequently hear - "If only there was someone carrying at [shooting spree location], this wouldn't have happened". Guns in the hands of good guys sometimes also create problems as much as they solve them... (not saying the police shouldn't have fired on the guy, of course)

What is says is that restricting firearms to police only doesn't make bystanders any less likely to get shot during an altercation.

Stealhead · 08-25-12, 06:53 PM

The cops either where the spray and pray type or they where using a long arm and the bullets hit the target and passed though him.

It said that the cops that fired where "counter terror" which means the guys that walk around with M-4 or G-36Ks a long arm and those guys are better trained than a beat cop at marksmanship(in theory).My assumption is that all or most of the rounds hit the gunman and went through him and then hit other people 5.56mm will pass though a body at close range.Even the GSG-9 in 1977 and the SAS raid on the Iranian embassy in London and the GIGN deal in 1994 and the Beslan incident in Russia in all of those some people did get hit by the raiders in a confined or veyr crowded situation there is only so much one can do you have to mitigate the threat and try not to hit anyone else it is a tight rope be to too careful and lots of people will get hurt too reckless it goes poorly as well.At Beslan a sniper had to shoot a girl in the leg to stop her from running back inside the school and to certain death.

Rockstar · 08-26-12, 09:02 AM

No doubt the perp was the problem he started it the cops finished it, kudos to these officers it is a difficult and thankless job they have to perform. Unfortunately IMO lawsuits are bound to clean out part the city coffer. The police will learn and adapt as for everyone else involved only money, and lots of it, can assuage thier grief, pain and suffering and fix their life. Yep money.

Stealhead · 08-26-12, 12:51 PM

I think it will depend on the lawsuits it will have to proven that the police acted in a negligent manner.

Seeing as there was a man who had just murdered a person walking down a public street with a gun the police did not have much choice.It seems that they told him to stop and he aimed the gun at them and they shot him.You have no way of knowing what the intent was but it is safe to say that the man would have killed anyone that got in his way.

What else could they have done? Stood there and let the man shot them because they do want in any way to hit a bystander? Which means that the gunman could kill them or shoot anyone else and then get another weapon.Should they just have allowed a person that just committed an act of violence a murder in public no less simply walk away?

It is possible that the city may just pay damages to the people that got wounded by the police bullets.That is the best way to deal with the situation.

soopaman2 · 08-27-12, 10:38 AM

One killed by the gunman. The rest wounded and or killed by cops.

I am a New Yorker...This fails to surprise me.

On to mayor Bloomberg.

When Rudy Giuliani (hero mayor of 9-11) wanted a 3rd term, Bloomy used his position to deny a 3rd term.
But when Bloomy wanted it, passed without a problem.

So what does Bloomy have to do with this?

EVERYTHING. He wants to legislate smoking, and tax soda, well his officers are taking the same extremist views as him. Including spewing out 14 shots on a crowded street.

I used to work a block away and that street is jammed that time of morning.

I am disgusted by the lack of weapons training in the officers, and have a feeling that these men were just happy to be able to discharge thier weapons, rather than caring for the hundreds of civilians in the area.

A reflection on Michael Bloomberg, Luckily he owns Bloomberg news, so he can at least spin the controversy away from him.

Man I wish I was a billionaire.

Bilge_Rat · 08-27-12, 11:36 AM

Here is a video of the shootout:

As you can see, the officers had to make a split second decision after the suspect pulled his gun out and aimed it at them. The whole confrontation was over in 6 seconds.

you have to remember the NYPD is armed with semi-automatic pistols and trained to keep firing until the suspect is down. Even if some bullets miss, the theory is that enough will hit to neutralize the suspect.

In a situation like this, a police officer has to decide in a split second whether to shoot or not; he is unfamiliar with the location; there may be wind, dust or poor visibility; he may not be in the optimum firing position and/or moving (as here); the target may be moving and/or worse aiming a gun at them (again as here).

You also have to remember that a pistol is inherently difficult to aim. With a rifle, you can stabilize the weapon with both hands and shoulder and you have that long barrel as an aiming point. A pistol is only held in one hand and even with a two handed grip, it is easy to be slightly off and miss completely. With a semi-auto pistol, you also have to contend with the cumulative recoil of all these rounds being fired in quick succession, each one of which will throw off your aim slightly. Only getting 1/2 of the bullets in the target in these situations is not abnormal.

Did the officers react appropriately? As you can see in the video, 6 seconds elapsed from the time the suspect points his gun to the time he is down. However, as we all know lawyers will be second guessing what happened in those 6 seconds for years.

Stealhead · 08-27-12, 01:15 PM

It all boils down to ones level of training with a pistol.Yes you do have much less stability with a pistol but this does not mean that they inherently inaccurate.A person that trains themselves properly to use a pistol under stress should be fairly accurate.

If you are not properly trained you could miss with any type of firearm even at that range.

The best split second handgun shooting that I have ever heard of was an Air Force Security Forces(SP) member some guy came on the base and killed some people inside the base hospital he then grabbed a woman and walked out side with her this SP just happened to be outside the location the gunman was walking out off and fired one bullet from an M9(Beretta M92) into the gunman's head game over.

I would say given the time span and situation one could only have done worse and missed more shots. According to the US military about 33% of rounds fired hit the intended target for sniper units the average is about 80%.

Also according to CNN: "Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said the bystanders were not hit directly by police, but rather the officers' struck "flowerpots and other objects around, so ... their bullets fragmented and, in essence, that's what caused the wounds."

I love the armed civilian concept here though that is a laugh you can get a carry permit in a few hours they provide you with no realistic training and do not require you to qualify with your
weapon on a regular basis.In other words the person carrying could be a horrible shot be a panicky freak and that is just bad news.Sure there are some people that have carry permits that actually know what they are doing but you cant be sure. Realistically a conceal carry is best for a robbery or other situation where the suspect is forced to flee when they realize that their intended victim was packing heat or in a similar situation where merely the display of the firearm is enough to end the situation.

Sailor Steve · 08-27-12, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

If you are not properly trained you could miss with any type of firearm even at that range.

How much training is considered "proper"?

Quote:

00 - 02 Yds
Uniformed Members Of Service: 64
Number Of Shots Fired: 127
Number Of Hits: 65
Percentage Of Hits: 51

That's for shots fired by NYC police officers at a range of 2 yards or less...51%.

At 7 yards it's 44%
At 15 yards the hit rate was a whopping 7%.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...ge-report.html

Dowly · 08-27-12, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

According to the US military about 33% of rounds fired hit the intended target[..]

Find, Fix, Finish.

nikimcbee · 08-27-12, 01:57 PM

We need Hanomag in here. I'd love to hear his thoughts on the matter.

08-24-12, 09:00 PM	#1
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	Two dead and several wounded in NYC shooting outside Empire State Building http://www.smh.com.au/world/two-dead...824-24smb.html From some reports sounds like some of the wounded were shot by police in the gunfight that ensued.

08-25-12, 04:37 PM	#3
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	So here's an interesting twist to the story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19380492 Apparently ALL 9 other people who were shot and wounded were actually hit by police bullets and not the gunman. I wonder what that says about the argument I frequently hear - "If only there was someone carrying at [shooting spree location], this wouldn't have happened". Guns in the hands of good guys sometimes also create problems as much as they solve them... (not saying the police shouldn't have fired on the guy, of course) __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

08-25-12, 06:01 PM	#5
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,473 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Not a good outcome for the Police but we all know who was responsible for bringing this about and it wasn't the Police. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

08-27-12, 10:38 AM	#10
soopaman2 Der Alte Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 3,316 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	One killed by the gunman. The rest wounded and or killed by cops. I am a New Yorker...This fails to surprise me. On to mayor Bloomberg. When Rudy Giuliani (hero mayor of 9-11) wanted a 3rd term, Bloomy used his position to deny a 3rd term. But when Bloomy wanted it, passed without a problem. So what does Bloomy have to do with this? EVERYTHING. He wants to legislate smoking, and tax soda, well his officers are taking the same extremist views as him. Including spewing out 14 shots on a crowded street. I used to work a block away and that street is jammed that time of morning. I am disgusted by the lack of weapons training in the officers, and have a feeling that these men were just happy to be able to discharge thier weapons, rather than caring for the hundreds of civilians in the area. A reflection on Michael Bloomberg, Luckily he owns Bloomberg news, so he can at least spin the controversy away from him. Man I wish I was a billionaire. __________________ If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. -Winston Churchill- The most fascinating man in the world.

08-27-12, 11:36 AM	#11
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,855 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	Here is a video of the shootout: As you can see, the officers had to make a split second decision after the suspect pulled his gun out and aimed it at them. The whole confrontation was over in 6 seconds. you have to remember the NYPD is armed with semi-automatic pistols and trained to keep firing until the suspect is down. Even if some bullets miss, the theory is that enough will hit to neutralize the suspect. In a situation like this, a police officer has to decide in a split second whether to shoot or not; he is unfamiliar with the location; there may be wind, dust or poor visibility; he may not be in the optimum firing position and/or moving (as here); the target may be moving and/or worse aiming a gun at them (again as here). You also have to remember that a pistol is inherently difficult to aim. With a rifle, you can stabilize the weapon with both hands and shoulder and you have that long barrel as an aiming point. A pistol is only held in one hand and even with a two handed grip, it is easy to be slightly off and miss completely. With a semi-auto pistol, you also have to contend with the cumulative recoil of all these rounds being fired in quick succession, each one of which will throw off your aim slightly. Only getting 1/2 of the bullets in the target in these situations is not abnormal. Did the officers react appropriately? As you can see in the video, 6 seconds elapsed from the time the suspect points his gun to the time he is down. However, as we all know lawyers will be second guessing what happened in those 6 seconds for years. __________________ Last edited by Bilge_Rat; 08-27-12 at 11:48 AM.

08-24-12, 10:07 PM	#2
Tribesman Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Look on the bright side, it was only a local going postal

08-25-12, 05:03 PM	#4
Rockstar In the Brig Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Zendia Bar & Grill Posts: 12,614 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I wonder when the last time they reviewed their use of force policy? Doesn't bode well for the city or police, gonna be some serious lawsuits coming up.

08-25-12, 06:53 PM	#7
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	The cops either where the spray and pray type or they where using a long arm and the bullets hit the target and passed though him. It said that the cops that fired where "counter terror" which means the guys that walk around with M-4 or G-36Ks a long arm and those guys are better trained than a beat cop at marksmanship(in theory).My assumption is that all or most of the rounds hit the gunman and went through him and then hit other people 5.56mm will pass though a body at close range.Even the GSG-9 in 1977 and the SAS raid on the Iranian embassy in London and the GIGN deal in 1994 and the Beslan incident in Russia in all of those some people did get hit by the raiders in a confined or veyr crowded situation there is only so much one can do you have to mitigate the threat and try not to hit anyone else it is a tight rope be to too careful and lots of people will get hurt too reckless it goes poorly as well.At Beslan a sniper had to shoot a girl in the leg to stop her from running back inside the school and to certain death.

08-26-12, 09:02 AM	#8
Rockstar In the Brig Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Zendia Bar & Grill Posts: 12,614 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	No doubt the perp was the problem he started it the cops finished it, kudos to these officers it is a difficult and thankless job they have to perform. Unfortunately IMO lawsuits are bound to clean out part the city coffer. The police will learn and adapt as for everyone else involved only money, and lots of it, can assuage thier grief, pain and suffering and fix their life. Yep money.

08-26-12, 12:51 PM	#9
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I think it will depend on the lawsuits it will have to proven that the police acted in a negligent manner. Seeing as there was a man who had just murdered a person walking down a public street with a gun the police did not have much choice.It seems that they told him to stop and he aimed the gun at them and they shot him.You have no way of knowing what the intent was but it is safe to say that the man would have killed anyone that got in his way. What else could they have done? Stood there and let the man shot them because they do want in any way to hit a bystander? Which means that the gunman could kill them or shoot anyone else and then get another weapon.Should they just have allowed a person that just committed an act of violence a murder in public no less simply walk away? It is possible that the city may just pay damages to the people that got wounded by the police bullets.That is the best way to deal with the situation.

08-27-12, 01:15 PM	#12
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	It all boils down to ones level of training with a pistol.Yes you do have much less stability with a pistol but this does not mean that they inherently inaccurate.A person that trains themselves properly to use a pistol under stress should be fairly accurate. If you are not properly trained you could miss with any type of firearm even at that range. The best split second handgun shooting that I have ever heard of was an Air Force Security Forces(SP) member some guy came on the base and killed some people inside the base hospital he then grabbed a woman and walked out side with her this SP just happened to be outside the location the gunman was walking out off and fired one bullet from an M9(Beretta M92) into the gunman's head game over. I would say given the time span and situation one could only have done worse and missed more shots. According to the US military about 33% of rounds fired hit the intended target for sniper units the average is about 80%. Also according to CNN: "Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said the bystanders were not hit directly by police, but rather the officers' struck "flowerpots and other objects around, so ... their bullets fragmented and, in essence, that's what caused the wounds." I love the armed civilian concept here though that is a laugh you can get a carry permit in a few hours they provide you with no realistic training and do not require you to qualify with your weapon on a regular basis.In other words the person carrying could be a horrible shot be a panicky freak and that is just bad news.Sure there are some people that have carry permits that actually know what they are doing but you cant be sure. Realistically a conceal carry is best for a robbery or other situation where the suspect is forced to flee when they realize that their intended victim was packing heat or in a similar situation where merely the display of the firearm is enough to end the situation. Last edited by Stealhead; 08-27-12 at 01:36 PM.

08-27-12, 01:57 PM	#15
nikimcbee Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Patroling the Slot. Posts: 17,952 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	We need Hanomag in here. I'd love to hear his thoughts on the matter. __________________