TOP SECRET MISSION OF U-864-Some say the invention of SSN to SSN Warfare

OnePingOnly · 08-02-11, 11:47 AM

U-864 was take to make a TOP SECRET voyage to Japan, bringing the Empire Parts and Mock ups, drawings and engineering schematic along with a hull full of mercury so that Japan could build the new Messerschmidt Jet Engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-864
http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/...enturer864.htm

HMS Venturer and the development of Attack Submarines
During World War II submarines were typically hunted on the surface and only engaged underwater if contact was maintained when the submarine dived. There was no expectation of submarines tracking other submarines underwater and engaging in 'torpedo dogfights'. This type of anti-submarine action became a possibility after the duel between HMS Venturer and U864 in the North Sea, just off Kiel Harbour. The U864 was carrying secret German weapons technology intended to assist Japan against US bombing raids. An ULTRA intercept alerted the Royal Navy, who dispatched a submarine to intercept the cargo. The U864 was separated from its escort, and, recognising that it was being trailed by an enemy submarine, submerged and began to zig-zag. This was a course of action which would normally render it invulnerable, but Jimmy Launders, the captain of HMS Venturer (P68), submerged as well and tracked it using hydrophone signals. For several hours the cat-and-mouse hunt progressed, until Lander decided to perform the complex calculations necessary to obtain a firing solution in three dimensions. These were done manually, predicting the likely manoeveuers of the target, and a spread of four torpedoes at 17 second intervals and varying depths was fired. The U864 dived into the path of one of these, and was blown in half. This was the first attempt by one submarine to sink another while both were submerged, and the only successful one ever recorded up to the present day. It was a hugely influential action in the history of anti-submarine warfare, and modern attack submarine's tactics of attempting to track ballistic missile submarines from their bases underwater are directly derived from it. Modern computers provide the calculations which were originally done manually, and modern torpedoes are guided, but in all other respects the essentials of submerged anti-submarine warfare have remained the same.

08-02-11, 12:27 PM

The British R-Class boats of 1917-18 were designed specifically as anti-submarine hunter-killers and were equipped with the most sensitive hydrophones available at the time to do so submerged. By some accounts, several submerged attacks were attempted but the technology was not yet up to the concept.

Successful innovations seldom happen in a vacuum and the RN had always believed that one submarine could effectively hunt and kill another, hence the rationale for sometimes including submarines in convoy escorts. To that end they worked very hard at developing special passive hydrophone arrays and the beginnings of modern Target Motion Analysis geometry. In both world wars a significant number of U-Boats were sunk by British submarines but no successful submerged attack was conducted until Venturer sank U-864.

It takes nothing away from Lt Launders outstanding success to note that his entire arm of service had been working for some 28-years towards the very goal he finally achieved.

Sailor Steve · 08-02-11, 01:39 PM

Just a comment on your title: At that time it would be SS, not SSN.

OnePingOnly · 08-02-11, 05:41 PM

RIGHT S S N No NUKES LOL

I believe from what i have read and a recent television broadcast that this showed them it could be done successfully. He Used a combination of Periscope sightings of the U's Periscope and the ASDIC sonar that was equipped to his ship. For the time, using the tools available, AND the fact the U was making LOUD engine noise due to malfunction assisted in tracking and plotting a course. The U was zig Zagging, He missed his first three shots the last hit as the U was changing depths did him in.

max-peck · 08-02-11, 06:49 PM

Totally off topic, 'OnePingOnly' is a wicked cool forum handle

Jimbuna · 08-03-11, 07:10 AM

This is the only known incident in all of naval warfare in which one submarine sinks another while both are submerged.

Timewatch The Hunt for U-864 World War II

OSU · 08-03-11, 11:32 AM

I remember watching the first 60 seconds of that show, then I changed channels. Thanks for finding this!

Jimbuna · 08-03-11, 11:39 AM

Your welcome...it's not too bad neither.

Sailor Steve · 08-03-11, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max-peck

Totally off topic, 'OnePingOnly' is a wicked cool forum handle

Yes it is.

OnePingOnly · 08-04-11, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max-peck

Totally off topic, 'OnePingOnly' is a wicked cool forum handle

Why Thank You! I actually Mulled over that before registering! OH the time a Kerluen has while getting to a patrol zone....Have to do something! LOL

08-02-11, 11:47 AM	#1
OnePingOnly Seaman Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	TOP SECRET MISSION OF U-864-Some say the invention of SSN to SSN Warfare U-864 was take to make a TOP SECRET voyage to Japan, bringing the Empire Parts and Mock ups, drawings and engineering schematic along with a hull full of mercury so that Japan could build the new Messerschmidt Jet Engine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-864 http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/...enturer864.htm *HMS Venturer and the development of Attack Submarines* During World War II submarines were typically hunted on the surface and only engaged underwater if contact was maintained when the submarine dived. There was no expectation of submarines tracking other submarines underwater and engaging in 'torpedo dogfights'. This type of anti-submarine action became a possibility after the duel between HMS Venturer and U864 in the North Sea, just off Kiel Harbour. The U864 was carrying secret German weapons technology intended to assist Japan against US bombing raids. An ULTRA intercept alerted the Royal Navy, who dispatched a submarine to intercept the cargo. The U864 was separated from its escort, and, recognising that it was being trailed by an enemy submarine, submerged and began to zig-zag. This was a course of action which would normally render it invulnerable, but Jimmy Launders, the captain of HMS Venturer (P68), submerged as well and tracked it using hydrophone signals. For several hours the cat-and-mouse hunt progressed, until Lander decided to perform the complex calculations necessary to obtain a firing solution in three dimensions. These were done manually, predicting the likely manoeveuers of the target, and a spread of four torpedoes at 17 second intervals and varying depths was fired. The U864 dived into the path of one of these, and was blown in half. This was the first attempt by one submarine to sink another while both were submerged, and the only successful one ever recorded up to the present day. It was a hugely influential action in the history of anti-submarine warfare, and modern attack submarine's tactics of attempting to track ballistic missile submarines from their bases underwater are directly derived from it. Modern computers provide the calculations which were originally done manually, and modern torpedoes are guided, but in all other respects the essentials of submerged anti-submarine warfare have remained the same.

08-02-11, 01:39 PM	#3
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Just a comment on your title: At that time it would be SS, not SSN. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

08-02-11, 06:49 PM	#5
max-peck Grey Wolf Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: UK Posts: 752 Downloads: 414 Uploads: 0	Totally off topic, 'OnePingOnly' is a wicked cool forum handle __________________ -------------------------------------------------- Authority should derive from the consent of the governed, not from the threat of force If the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon everything starts to look like a nail FOTRS Ultimate http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=226270 The future of SH4 - coming to a PC near you soon

08-03-11, 07:10 AM	#6
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,500 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	This is the only known incident in all of naval warfare in which one submarine sinks another while both are submerged. Timewatch The Hunt for U-864 World War II __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

08-03-11, 11:32 AM	#7
OSU A-ganger Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 79 Downloads: 81 Uploads: 0	I remember watching the first 60 seconds of that show, then I changed channels. Thanks for finding this! __________________ Philippians 2:14-15 Those things that are precious are saved only by sacrifice. -Pvt. David Webster All gave some, some gave all. We will never forget you. Semper Fi

08-02-11, 12:27 PM	#2
Randomizer Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	The British R-Class boats of 1917-18 were designed specifically as anti-submarine hunter-killers and were equipped with the most sensitive hydrophones available at the time to do so submerged. By some accounts, several submerged attacks were attempted but the technology was not yet up to the concept. Successful innovations seldom happen in a vacuum and the RN had always believed that one submarine could effectively hunt and kill another, hence the rationale for sometimes including submarines in convoy escorts. To that end they worked very hard at developing special passive hydrophone arrays and the beginnings of modern Target Motion Analysis geometry. In both world wars a significant number of U-Boats were sunk by British submarines but no successful submerged attack was conducted until Venturer sank U-864. It takes nothing away from Lt Launders outstanding success to note that his entire arm of service had been working for some 28-years towards the very goal he finally achieved.

08-02-11, 05:41 PM	#4
OnePingOnly Seaman Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	RIGHT S S N No NUKES LOL I believe from what i have read and a recent television broadcast that this showed them it could be done successfully. He Used a combination of Periscope sightings of the U's Periscope and the ASDIC sonar that was equipped to his ship. For the time, using the tools available, AND the fact the U was making LOUD engine noise due to malfunction assisted in tracking and plotting a course. The U was zig Zagging, He missed his first three shots the last hit as the U was changing depths did him in.

08-03-11, 11:39 AM	#8
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,500 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Your welcome...it's not too bad neither. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!