Order 270 U.S.S.R. - Family of Red Army Captives Killed

[Feuer Frei!]

We all know how much of a good guy Stalin was, right?
Wrong ofc:

Order 270 of the USSR killed the children of any Russian who surrendered to the Germans.
In August of 1941, so many Russians were defecting to the Axis nations Germany, Finland, Romania, Hungary, to escape the concentration camps of Communism that the USSR enacted the notorious "Order 270" which punished and killed the family, which included even children of every Russian who defected to the West.

Actual text of Order 270:

"To bind each soldier, independent of his official position, to rebuff the enemy to the death, rather than to be taken and held captive, the family of the captured Red Army men to be deprived of welfare payment and of aid."

Order 270 of the U.S.S.R.

August 16, 1941

1941, Source: [RGVA], f. 4, pub. 12, d. 98, l. 617-622. Certified copy. Published in Military History Periodical. 1988. ***8470; 9. s. 26-28. I

Orders of the People's Commissariat of the Defense of the USSR.
June 22, 1941. - 1942 g. - M.
Published: 1997. - Vol. 13 (2-2). - S. 58-60. - 448 s. - (Russian archive: Great Domestic).
ISBN 5-85255-708-0

When Order 270 states that all aid to the families of soliders who are captured alive will be cut off, it means all food, water, shelter during the -20 degree Russian winter, a death sentence. When people were denied housing, they became technically vagrants in the USSR, and by law all vagrants were rounded up and sent to die in the Gulags.

Which in a state system means the family freezes out in the cold and starves, until they are rounded up as a vagrants and sentenced to the Gulags for the rest of their lives, which in a Gulag was about 3 years. Being deprived to shelter from the winter, deprived of food and water, condemned to vagrancy and arrest to be sent to the Gulags which was a death sentence for 60 million people.

Source: Roberts, Geoffrey. Stalin's Wars: From World War to Cold War, 1939***8211;1953. New Heaven, CT; London: Yale University Press, 2006 (hardcover, ISBN 0300112041), page 98


http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300112047

[joea]

Who said he was a good guy? Heck Churchill and FDr have come in for their share of criticism - putting aside communist or fellow travellers propaganda of the past the most I've heard he was a useful bas**** against another s.o.b. Hitler.

Interesting the book you linked in the intro it states:

While frankly exploring the full extent of Stalin’s brutalities and their impact on the Soviet people, Roberts also uncovers evidence leading to the stunning conclusion that Stalin was both the greatest military leader of the twentieth century and a remarkable politician who sought to avoid the Cold War and establish a long-term detente with the capitalist world.

and further...

Roberts depicts a despot who helped save the world for democracy, a personal charmer who disciplined mercilessly, a utopian ideologue who could be a practical realist, and a warlord who undertook the role of architect of post-war peace.

Have you actually read the book? It seems the author is a bit more balanced than what you seem to be portraying in your post. What page is the info on Order 270 actually taken from? does the author have hard numbers for the number of people affected?

[kiwi_2005]

Ive watched a few documentaries of Stalin sometimes I don't know who was more insane Hitler or Stalin.

[BossMark]

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

Ive watched a few documentaries of Stalin sometimes I don't know who was more insane Hitler or Stalin.

Yes it makes me wonder what could have happened if Hitler had never invaded Russia

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by joea

Who said he was a good guy?

i was attempting to be sarcastic.
It didn't pay off.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by joea

Have you actually read the book? It seems the author is a bit more balanced than what you seem to be portraying in your post. What page is the info on Order 270 actually taken from? does the author have hard numbers for the number of people affected?

Order 270 1941, published in the Military History Periodical 1988, and it was taken from pge 26-28.

Here's this, also from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_No._270

and: THIS
i quote from link:

I hereby order: 1. Commanders and political workers during the battle with the obstructionists themselves, and insignia in the rear of defecting or surrendering to the enemy, is considered a malicious deserter, whose families are subject to arrest as a family have violated the oath and betrayed his homeland deserters.
Require all higher-level commanders and commissars shot on the spot like deserters from the command personnel.
2. Were encircled enemy units and subunits selflessly fight to the last, to preserve the material part, as the apple of your eye, make its way to the rear of his enemy, defeating the fascist dogs.
Oblige each soldier, regardless of his official position to demand from a superior, if part of it is surrounded, to fight until the last possible moment to get through to her, and if a head or part of the Red Army instead of the organization would prefer to repel the enemy to surrender - to destroy by all means, both ground and air, and families who have surrendered to the Red Army prisoners deprived of public assistance and care.
3. To require the division commanders and commissars immediately remove from their posts of commanders of battalions and regiments, hiding in crevices during the battle and fear lead the course of a fight on the battlefield, reducing them by post as impostors, in the rank and file transfer, and if necessary, shoot them on site, bringing to the their place of bold and courageous people of junior command personnel from the ranks of distinguished or Red.

[joea]

Look I don't have time for detailed discussion right now-it does seems my point about Roberts was missed-I will try to do some futher inquiries on my own. It does seem astonishing that Russian soldiers fought as hard as they did if there was no sense of patriotism or hatred for the invader. Fear of one's own government will only go so far. I would like hard numbers at the very least.

[MH]

Originally Posted by joea

Look I don't have time for detailed discussion right now-it does seems my point about Roberts was missed-I will try to do some futher inquiries on my own. It does seem astonishing that Russian soldiers fought as hard as they did if there was no sense of patriotism or hatred for the invader. Fear of one's own government will only go so far. I would like hard numbers at the very least.

Yes i agree that Russian sacrifice during WW2 is somewhat underestimated.
There was great sense of duty and patriotism but that wasn't very obvious from the start of campaign.
Ruthlessness and crude force was needed to overcome sense defeatism and to gain any results in slowing German forces.
Only the determination of Stalin and his generals saved Russia from similar fate to France.

[Stealhead]

I agree with MH Stalin was a very rotten person but it was his persona or the fear of it that helped them win the war.In the end it is the lesser of two
evils I suppose be under the control of your ruthless dictator or be enslaved by foreign dictator I think most peoples would not pick the last one.From a few books
I have read written by ex Red Army soldiers it seems that many Russians felt that after winning the war that things would become better at home of course that never came to
pass but it was better than the alternate by a long shot.

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by MH

There was great sense of duty and patriotism but that wasn't very obvious from the start of campaign.

Patriotism wasn't born in 1941 and didn't end in 1945, it was a big thing already in 1930s. Stalin consciously wanted to invoke the victorious Russian past in the patriotic light to bolster the spirit of the people, who were living in turmoil after collectivization and forced industrialization. Separatism was a real threat in the borders of Soviet Union, which itself was governed from Moscow in very centralized manner.

As the threat from outside increased, it was simple enough to channel the patriotism for militaristic purposes. Films were especially important in this whole process, music too. By reading the lyrics of songs from 1935 onwards, you will inevitably notice that the omnipresent enemy is more and more outside of the borders instead of inside. This song (can be listened ) is a prime example and it was made for a film of the same name already in 1938. And as for films, another example is this well known allegory.

How much the ordinary Red Army soldier believed in these is anyone's guess. But there hadn't been lack of effort already long before the war. And seeing how efficient the Soviet propaganda machine was, I'd estimate it did achieve some results as well.

[jumpy]

Stalin was a manipulative bandit with absolutely no humanity.
Right from the very beginning he used those around him to further his goals, then disposed of them when he deemed their usefulness obsolete. Not to mention his characteristic vindictiveness, almost childlike in its application.
His only talent seemed to be having insight into others in order to use them.
Any freedom during ww2 that stalin used to resist hitler (through the army structure and initiative, and some of the civil side of things) was crushed after the end of the war. Having used them to win, they were no longer useful, but dangerous.

You can argue he was a great leader (and I'd doubt this myself*), but he never had anything but his own interests at heart.
Something the americans in ww2 completely miscalculated to start with. Churchill knew what he was about, but also knew that sometimes you have to deal with monsters in order to get rid of monsters.

I think it's an irony that goebles said that the tide of bolshevism would descend on europe like an 'iron curtain', long before that reality (and iconic phrase) came to pass. But I suppose it takes a monster to recognise another for what they are.


* the chaotic way he handled the nazi invasion, sticking to ruthless political and ideological thinking instead of practical military planning cost a lot of territory and russian lives. It was only when he relaxed his grip slightly on the military that things started to change.
But like hitler, his inexperienced meddling in matters he did not understand almost cost the war. However, stalin allied himself with britain and america and so did not fall entirely foul of his own megalomania as did hitler.

[CCIP]

I actually have no sympathy for Stalin whatsoever and I don't think he needs to be defended.

My problem is that the war and its decisions weren't just Stalin (or just Hitler or just Churchill etc. etc.). You can't personalize history this way and you can't merely focus the characterization of a nation to one person, or even one quality, and then spread it to everyone else. The order aside, what troubles me about these discussions is "Stalin/communism was evil, therefore..." - wait, therefore what? What would you have liked to see? Denying assistance? "Hitler" beating the "Russians"?

Again, I have no issue with giving Stalin his due condemnation, and individual decisions like this - and many others - deserve criticism for their inhumanity. But to suggest that this requires a revision to what the Soviet effort in WWII really meant - and doing that on the eve of the 70th anniversary of the German invasion - is gross and frankly just a cover for Russophobia/McCarthyism/Orientalism. That's frankly my names for that.

Again, I have no issue with giving Stalin his due condemnation, and individual decisions like this - and many others - deserve criticism for their inhumanity. But to suggest that this requires a revision to what the Soviet effort in WWII really meant - and doing that on the eve of the 70th anniversary of the German invasion - is gross and frankly just a cover for Russophobia/McCarthyism/Orientalism. That's frankly my names for that.

This.

It is pretty obvious that the OP never bothered to actually read the book that he cherry picked a specific narrative from and just wanted to establish some anti-Soviet polemic merely for the sake of posting.

[MH]

Originally Posted by jumpy

* the chaotic way he handled the nazi invasion, sticking to ruthless political and ideological thinking instead of practical military planning cost a lot of territory and russian lives. It was only when he relaxed his grip slightly on the military that things started to change.
But like hitler, his inexperienced meddling in matters he did not understand almost cost the war. However, stalin allied himself with britain and america and so did not fall entirely foul of his own megalomania as did hitler.

The state of soviet army was poor due to the purges done before invasion.
Putting competent and at the same time ruthless generals in charge of military who did not mind throwing hundreds of thousands of poorly trained and bad equipped solders into the grinder greatly slowed German army.
At the same time industrial and military reorganisation took place behind the lines.
Still the use of shear number along with basic military tactics by Russian generals can not be denied throughout the length of the war.
Its a doctrine that Soviet army inherited and believed in long after the end of ww2.

@CCCIP
I agree with you totally.
I still would prefer Soviet Union than nazi Germany.
Probably wouldn't be here if it wasn't for russian sacrifice.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

It is pretty obvious that the OP never bothered to actually read the book that he cherry picked a specific narrative from and just wanted to establish some anti-Soviet polemic merely for the sake of posting.

Cherry-picked. Yea right, why would i need to cherry-pick this post and it's contents when there is a plethora of Stuff about our good ole friend Stalin?
Next, anti-soviet?
Another laughing smilie for you. You obviously have no clue what my motif is for posting the details, or rather snippets of the Order 270 do you?
If i wanted to post anti-soviet material and propaganda, then i can assure you i could do a much better job.
Next, can we start on the right foot next time?
I don't appreciate having words shoved down my internet mouth and made to look like some anti-soviet.
Thank you for your time and subjective reading of this post.