wow

[green_abobo]

this game makes SH4 look like battleship.

theres ALOT to absorb.

of course i have questions:

1. is it just me or is the sonar system for this game whack? each sub has a million sensors, but ask it to identify something correctly, or give you a decent bearing for TMA purposes, forget it.

-the different types of sonar on the russian subs (the akulas, specifically) they suck IMO. especially the ship classification in narrowband. i cant tell what im shooting at half the time.

-seems like the towed array is the best to use w/ narrowband. problem is i cant use it and go slow enough to not be detected (traveling deep @ a knot or two, the in-game equilvalent to silent running) because it drags and bounces off the ground and cant read anything.

-sure you can reel it in some, but wouldnt that lessen the overall range of detection you have, thus defeating the purpose of it altogether?

- i guess what i'm getting at here is that its real difficult to sneak up on the enemy, so since they can hear you approaching; they begin zig zagging evasively, making it even more difficult to analyze and produce a decent enough TMA result to actually be lethal.

2. how can i practice using the TMA? how can i tell if i have lead or lag LOBs? since i cant seem to get proper range, speed and course estimates, i miss w/ alot of weapons. even TASMs miss.

- i realize from the tutorial vids that changing your course can help determine a lead/lag situation. (using the LOBs that 2 minute sonar reports produce on the TMA plot)

but exactly how much, and in which direction, at what interval(s) should the course changes be made to produce a solid TMA solution? right now, thats the 10,000,000$ question...i cant seem to hit the broad side of a barn, even w/ adcap mk 48 torpedoes, which are supposed to be one of the finest fish to ever be designed.

3. whats the best way to set up range, course, and speed? the periscope seems useless in this game unless you're looking for mines. is it all sonar bearings and "guessing" which one of the "infinite" solutions on the TMA track is the one?

4. is it possible to mod the game if you downloaded it from steam?

5. do quick missions have an end or do you just keep patroling?

6. how exactly does the SSP sonar work? i see the chart that it produces, but still dont know how to use it to interperate the thermal layer in a given scenario.

i believe this covers most of my immediate concerns.

as you were sailor...

[magicstix]

2 knots is too slow. You should be doing 5 or 6 knots to keep your towed array level. In DW, your speed only effects broadband emitted noise, not narrowband, so if you're being detected, you're too close. Below 5 knots DW's broadband curves don't change much, so you're not buying yourself anything by going too slow. You can also control how deep the array hangs by the scope. Scope doesn't have much effect on detection ranges in the game; it's mostly for setting up depth of the array. The enemy usually won't start zig zagging until you shoot them with something (and even then the general evasion maneuver is to turn and run), so I'm not sure what you're seeing.

Yes, the Russian sonars suck, they've never been as good as the West, but they get the job done. The big difference in DW is the Russian sonars are laid out in a plan view. This can be confusing for some people because it gives the illusion of range, but it also helps you understand direction better than the American waterfalls.

The easiest way to get a TMA solution is to first set up a lead, then lag posture. These will put limits on minimum and maximum ranges. If you can get an RPM count off DEMON, you can use that to dial in a speed for the contact, further constraining the solution. If you're still having trouble, set TMA to autocrew and watch how the AI does it.


The SSP display shows the sound speed as a function of depth at ownship. Where you have a sharp "bend" in the SSP, you have a layer. The SSP display automagically calculates the layer for you by looking for this bend. Keep in mind though, there may be environments with no layer, and even if there's a layer you'll still get heard close in due to direct path.

Sound always tends to bend towards lower sound speed, so if you're in a situation where the sound speed is faster than above you, you could be putting yourself in a shadow zone where they can hear you but you can't hear them.

[green_abobo]

well thanks for the reply. not to dispute but i find it ironic that you say speed will betray you in bb and not nb when the demon display uses nb to determine speed.

ive also overcome some of the towed sonar headaches by adjusting the length it can be streamed out by. the deeper you go, the further in you reel it and it no longer hits the bottom, as long as you arent moving too slow.

this is an awesome game and i'm totally hooked. ive had it exactly one week and im finally starting to get over some of the learning curve.

im learning subtle little things to help me, like using the active sonar intercept frequency to help ID contacts, referring to the sensors section of the USNI for the ranges.

also other stuff like if the NB sonar classification isnt quite being truthful (w/ the filter on) i can use the above method to scroll through the classifications in NB until i find one to match what is pinging me.

if i need even further classification i found that thats another good use for the periscope, especially against surface contacts.

now i can use the demon display to analyze speed, although this is also easier to do in a 688 than an akula or kilo.

sometimes i cant seem to get a tracker on some of these contacts to get the demon to display them properly. so i'll have to drop the contact and try again.

guessing its because im just not close enough.

i am kinda getting the hang of the TMA. it helps to figure out one of the 4 unknowns and lock it into the trial solution while finagling the rest of it.

when in doubt and in a hurry, snapshots can also be effective.

furthermore, i played a quick intercept mission last night in whch the thermal layer was actually displayed on the SSP sonar. most missions its just a line on the chart that curves to the right and just stops, but this one clearly had a number = the layer depth.

it was a mission were there was ice everywhere, and some of the surface contacts were completely surrounded by ice on all sides.

i could use the periscope to get the exact range, bearing, and course to fire SAMs at a joan de ark (or whatever) class french frigate that was stationary, blocked in the ice. the SAMs were doing damage, but not enough to kill it proper, even though they were hitting it. (explosions on bearing x)

torpedoes were completely ineffective as they would just hit the ice and detonate.

also saw another weird situation where the mission was to loiter in the berant sea and intercept a russian carrier group excorted by an akula I.

2 of the 3 surface contacts killed each other by ramming into one another. (trying to evade my torpedoes) the kirov that was escorting got beached on shore. (realized this after briefy turning the truth layer on because i couldnt find the akula anywhere and didnt even know the kirov was even w/ them!!)

good thing i was using a 688i w/ vertical launch tubes. I had to use multiple salvos of tlams (because it was picking off the incoming sams w/ its own) set w/ waypoints to kill it on the beach. it couldnt counter them all. lol.

i guess one other question i have is what is the advantage/disadvatage to setting your torps/countermeasures to passive vs. active? i can probably guess that one disadv. of active is that it gives your position away, but what about the advantage?

thanks again.

[magicstix]

DEMON isn't a narrowband display, but that's neither here nor there.

Active/passive countermeasures are used for when a torpedo is either active or passive on you. Most torpedoes start out passive then go active when they get close enough for terminal homing. So at first when there's a torpedo heading in your direction you'd generally pop off some passive countermeasures to try and lure the torpedo away from you. If the torpedo gets too close and starts pinging you, that's when you start using active CMs.

As far as passive vs active for your torpedoes, it's similar in reverse. The torpedo will home in passively then go active for the final kill. Of course, you can set where the torpedo enables and goes active to look for the target (this is what the enable button does). A torpedo or a counter measure going active doesn't necessarily reveal your position, but given that both torpedoes and countermeasures are really loud, they do reveal your bearing at their time of launch, which can leave you vulnerable to a snapshot.

In the case of countermeasures, it doesn't matter because your position is already given away if someone's shooting at you. In the case of a torpedo, however, they will pick up your bearing. This is why it's a good idea to make a course change after you take a shot.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by green_abobo

this game makes SH4 look like battleship.

theres ALOT to absorb.

of course i have questions:

1. is it just me or is the sonar system for this game whack? each sub has a million sensors, but ask it to identify something correctly, or give you a decent bearing for TMA purposes, forget it.

Welcome aboard! Yes, there is a lot to learn...

The sonars work as they are intended. You will get a bad bearing from the sonar with the towed array during turns. That's because the TA has a different orientation from Ownship during the turn. Intended. Classification is intended to be done by the player; the classification displayed on the filter is just the first on the list that happens to match the data you have. It's your job to narrow it down. If you use sonar autocrew, I think it chooses one from the list (that matches) at random; it will eventually get it right when enough information is available.

-seems like the towed array is the best to use w/ narrowband. problem is i cant use it and go slow enough to not be detected (traveling deep @ a knot or two, the in-game equilvalent to silent running) because it drags and bounces off the ground and cant read anything.

-sure you can reel it in some, but wouldnt that lessen the overall range of detection you have, thus defeating the purpose of it altogether?

Every tactical situation is different, but most of the time 2 knots is more than slow enough to get you very, very, very close without being detected by passive sonar. Towed array performance will be lost if it's short enough, but it has to be really short for that to happen. My personal preference is about 1/5 length for the US subs and about 200m for the Akulas.

- i guess what i'm getting at here is that its real difficult to sneak up on the enemy, so since they can hear you approaching; they begin zig zagging evasively, making it even more difficult to analyze and produce a decent enough TMA result to actually be lethal.

Depends on the enemy, acoustic conditions, your boat, etc. The AI is not programed to zigzag to foil your solution. AI surface is programmed to investigate and prosecute; AI subs, I think (I always play modded so sometimes I forget what Stock DW does) will alter course a few times while they try to get a solution on you.

I suspect that you may be trying to get much closer than you need to and that the primary means of counter-detection is Active, not passive, sonar. In case of active, your primary evasion means are range, aspect, and the thermal layer (if present). Speed is not relevant to that.

In any case, if you are being counterdetected at the ranges you are trying to get solution from, one obvious correction is to try to obtain a solution from a longer range. Anything beyond 10nmi is safe from active detection.

2. how can i practice using the TMA? how can i tell if i have lead or lag LOBs? since i cant seem to get proper range, speed and course estimates, i miss w/ alot of weapons. even TASMs miss.

- i realize from the tutorial vids that changing your course can help determine a lead/lag situation. (using the LOBs that 2 minute sonar reports produce on the TMA plot)

but exactly how much, and in which direction, at what interval(s) should the course changes be made to produce a solid TMA solution? right now, thats the 10,000,000$ question...i cant seem to hit the broad side of a barn, even w/ adcap mk 48 torpedoes, which are supposed to be one of the finest fish to ever be designed.

3. whats the best way to set up range, course, and speed? the periscope seems useless in this game unless you're looking for mines. is it all sonar bearings and "guessing" which one of the "infinite" solutions on the TMA track is the one?

There is no exactly correct magnitude or interval for a turn to give you that perfect solution. For many new players, their expectations of what can be achieved at TMA is a bit too high. The idea is to analyze the data to know what is possible, and to increase the data to narrow down the range of possibilities. You do not have to narrow it down to absolute perfection, and if the target is manuevering or changing speed, try as you might, it will never be perfect. It really only needs to be good enough to allow an ADCAP to acquire the target, which can acquire a target (including the narrow side of a midget submarine) within 2nmi.

That said, the usual "tell" for lead vs. lag LOS is that lag LOS will produce a rapid bearing change, while lead will hold bearing relatively constant. A good sized turn probably begins around 30 degrees, but ideally it should be enough to switch from lead to lag or vice versa... so a turn across the LOS would accomplish that.

...and I see you've reconsidered your opinion of the periscope.

For more information on TMA, I highly recommend Timmy G's TACMAN.

5. do quick missions have an end or do you just keep patroling?

Check the status screen, if all goals are complete then you can consider it done.

6. how exactly does the SSP sonar work? i see the chart that it produces, but still dont know how to use it to interperate the thermal layer in a given scenario.

There isn't always a layer, but if one is there it will give you the depth. Sound bends toward the lower speeds, so you will have greater sonar range (and counterdetection risk) near the lowest points on the SSP.

...but i find it ironic that you say speed will betray you in bb and not nb when the demon display uses nb to determine speed.
* * *
sometimes i cant seem to get a tracker on some of these contacts to get the demon to display them properly. so i'll have to drop the contact and try again.

The DEMON uses a Broadband, not a narrowband, tracker. If you've only marked your contact in NB, it will not appear in DEMON. This is one of the few things that has changed from SC to DW.

also other stuff like if the NB sonar classification isnt quite being truthful (w/ the filter on) i can use the above method to scroll through the classifications in NB until i find one to match what is pinging me.

Fusing data from multiple sources can be a wonderful thing.

torpedoes were completely ineffective as they would just hit the ice and detonate.

Two things you might try: Set the search depth of the torpedo nice and deep, and don't enable it until it is very close. The torpedo will come up from the bottom, missing the ice floes. Another possibility, although I'm not 100% sure, is to set a ceiling around 200ft. I believe that at 200 feet or less, the torpedo will detonate under the target (at reduced damage).

i guess one other question i have is what is the advantage/disadvatage to setting your torps/countermeasures to passive vs. active? i can probably guess that one disadv. of active is that it gives your position away, but what about the advantage?

As was mentioned, A/P CMs just refer to the homing type that it foils. Against AI, you will nearly always be using Active CMs, because the torpedoes that will be shot at you will be active. AI units will not react to your CMs, but a human opponent may be able to tag them if you are close enough--passive CMs in particular.

[AdamMil]

Originally Posted by green_abobo

the different types of sonar on the russian subs (the akulas, specifically) they suck IMO. especially the ship classification in narrowband

I've found that using the frequency scale helps a lot. Often you'll get most of the dots bunched up around the center (low frequencies). Changing the scale lets you "zoom in" on them, so you can distinguish them a bit better.

Find the point in the cursor where it "locks on" to a series of dots. Often a slight movement of the cursor clockwise or counterclockwise will enable it to lock on and apply the profile filter.

When you disable the filter and scroll through the classifications, it actually follows a predictable pattern based on the frequencies of the contacts, and you can watch the lines move in that pattern, so that can help you find the right classification by eye. This is mostly helpful if you've got nearly overlapping contacts.

i guess what i'm getting at here is that its real difficult to sneak up on the enemy, so since they can hear you approaching; they begin zig zagging evasively

I also have trouble with the AI detecting me no matter how slow I go. They seem to be psychic. It doesn't seem like they have to positively classify you as an enemy before you get the "You have been counterdetected." message. You can usually still complete the mission with no problem, except the disappointment of not having a perfect run. ;-P I don't think targets zig zag evasively, although I read that subs may occasionally change course at random. Not sure if it's true, but there's still enough time to get a solution usually.

how can i practice using the TMA?

One important thing is to get a sense of how the dot stack responds when you move the ruler. One type of movement bends the dots (moving parallel to bearing lines), another shears them (rotation?), another translates them (moving perpendicular to bearing lines), etc. By knowing how the dot stack responds you can look at a dot stack and think "Okay it's curved so I need to move the ruler this way to straighten it. And now it's a straight diagonal line so I just need to shear it until it's vertical. Okay now it's vertical, so I just need to translate it until it's centered."

Their user interface sucks, so it's a pain to do TMA, but there's software that can simulate TMA that you can use to practice with. Let me know if you're interested and I can recommend one, anyway.

Use DEMON to get the speed and lock that in. That reduces the number of possibilities greatly. I usually use auto TMA, though. :-P When there are a bunch of contacts and the TMA displays start to look like spaghetti and I think about using their crappy UI, it's just too much work.

whats the best way to set up range, course, and speed?

The easiest way is to use DEMON for speed and the intersections of bearing lines from widely separated sensors (sub + towed array or UUV) for range & course. If you only have one sensor, then you have to use the more complicated technique of turning your ship and doing TMA. (Though for me, turning the ship just turns the TMA display into an unmanageable mess of lines...)

the periscope seems useless in this game

It's actually decent for surface ships at short to medium ranges. You can get a good bearing and a decent range estimate (maybe 10-40% error) from the stadimeter, which is enough for a snapshot. It's not super useful, but it helps sometimes. Stadimeter UI kinda sucks, though.

sometimes i cant seem to get a tracker on some of these contacts... so i'll have to drop the contact and try again. guessing its because im just not close enough

Maybe, but the game does more than the average share of bugs and bad programming. :-(